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Kim Merrill
Guest
Talk to me
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Most all the Culver type work, just the same, non more accurate than the other. Harrells, Bruno, Old Jones/Lyman, New Jones, Culver, etc.
Think of them as measuring spoons. A 1 tsp measuring spoon is a 1 tsp measure whether it is plastic, aluminum, gold, made in the US, made in Communist China or whereever.
They all are just volumetric measures. As to the ones mentioned above they are graduated in "clicks". A Redding BR-3, Br-20, RCBS Uniflo, etc. They will all work with the same accuracy.....period!!!
Oh, a noticable difference in the Culver and the Jones/Lyman, the Culver has a straight knurl on the knob where the Jones/Lyman has a diamond knurl.
Think of them as measuring spoons. A 1 tsp measuring spoon is a 1 tsp measure whether it is plastic, aluminum, gold, made in the US, made in Communist China or whereever.
They all are just volumetric measures. As to the ones mentioned above they are graduated in "clicks". A Redding BR-3, Br-20, RCBS Uniflo, etc. They will all work with the same accuracy.....period!!!
Oh, a noticable difference in the Culver and the Jones/Lyman, the Culver has a straight knurl on the knob where the Jones/Lyman has a diamond knurl.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Imho
Jerry is right on. A Rose by any other name smells just a sweet. What the Culver type measure gave to us is smaller increments of adjustment and, perhaps better repeatability but a cavity is a cavity is a cavity.
Do any of you remember the adds for Lay Or Bust chicken feed? If you do, you might equate that to the RCBS Chargemaster. Put your trust in the Chargemaster Mr Greeley would say if he were here!
Jerry,
You are so practical !
Could one bake a cake with a Harrell's measure ? ,dropping say "three 53 click throws of vegetable oil ",six 55 click throws of egg whites" and "two hundred 80 click loads of flour" ?
Joeleddddddddd
sorry, the cat stepped on the keyboard.
Jerry is right on. A Rose by any other name smells just a sweet. What the Culver type measure gave to us is smaller increments of adjustment and, perhaps better repeatability but a cavity is a cavity is a cavity.
Do any of you remember the adds for Lay Or Bust chicken feed? If you do, you might equate that to the RCBS Chargemaster. Put your trust in the Chargemaster Mr Greeley would say if he were here!
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Kim Merrill
Guest
Repeatability
I have a Harrells BR. that I find to be inconsistent. My latest experiment has been to weight loads electronically. I have found that I am getting a .3g to .4g swing range with throws.
Is this common?
Is this considered unacceptable?
Should I just use the Harrells for baking?
I have a Harrells BR. that I find to be inconsistent. My latest experiment has been to weight loads electronically. I have found that I am getting a .3g to .4g swing range with throws.
Is this common?
Is this considered unacceptable?
Should I just use the Harrells for baking?
Kim,
You are totally cool about this, Yes, the Harrell's measure can have you questioning your sanity. A rectangular hole in the middle of the cavity and a drop chute way over on the right side is madness ! One needs to make modifications if one is to be successfull in throwing consistant charges !
Joel----- cat's in the kitchen.
You are totally cool about this, Yes, the Harrell's measure can have you questioning your sanity. A rectangular hole in the middle of the cavity and a drop chute way over on the right side is madness ! One needs to make modifications if one is to be successfull in throwing consistant charges !
Joel----- cat's in the kitchen.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
KO, Joel, what did the cat come back with the spoons or the measuring cups??
Concerned about the hole being offset? Set the measure on about 67 clicks, put a 3/8" pilot on your hole slider and just move it over!!
Come down to Unaka and shoot with us this weekend.
http://www.unakarodandgun.com/
I have an old Harrell thrower from the days when they made only two, and the other one was for schutzen (real small charges). The one thing I did find was that as the powder in the bottle dropped, the charges varied. There were three distinct regions -- about 2/3s full and fuller, 2/3s to 1/3 full, and 1/3 or less full.
I sat & threw a full bottle of powder, weighting the charges. Then drew two lines on my bottle. As long as the powder level was between the two lines, it worked pretty well. I use a powder bottle (hopper) that has a refill plug at the top, so I can keep the reservoir pretty constant.
I believe the newer Harrell's are different, as several friends have them, tried this test, and found little variance. The Hensler I use for PPC doesn't show this variance; I use the Harrell for .30 BR, as the Hensler won't throw a "big" charge of 34 grains.
With any measure, you need to throw about 10 charges after you first set it up, & put that powder back in the original bottle. And if you take things apart, again, throw the 10 charges.
If you are having consistency trouble & it isn't due to working the handle, you might try this hopper test.
FWIW
I sat & threw a full bottle of powder, weighting the charges. Then drew two lines on my bottle. As long as the powder level was between the two lines, it worked pretty well. I use a powder bottle (hopper) that has a refill plug at the top, so I can keep the reservoir pretty constant.
I believe the newer Harrell's are different, as several friends have them, tried this test, and found little variance. The Hensler I use for PPC doesn't show this variance; I use the Harrell for .30 BR, as the Hensler won't throw a "big" charge of 34 grains.
With any measure, you need to throw about 10 charges after you first set it up, & put that powder back in the original bottle. And if you take things apart, again, throw the 10 charges.
If you are having consistency trouble & it isn't due to working the handle, you might try this hopper test.
FWIW
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
I don't have time to look for it this morning but the late Frank Murphy did a quite extensive test for Precision Shooting magazine on most all the volumetric measures. His conclusion was that they all had the same accuracy potential when operated in a regimented process.
It would seem that something like the Redding BR-30 with its round cavity and the semi-spherical plunger would be some better than the conventional square hole-round hopper design of the Culver types. I never could tell that it does better, besides it doesn't have clicks.
The most repeatable volumetric measure I ever used was the Belding and Mull. It had a pre-measure cavity that dumped into the final-measure cavity but those measures are really scarse. This pre-measure feature eliminates the problem Charles described above.
All this is why I've used the RCBS 1500 Chargemaster since they came out in 2005.
It would seem that something like the Redding BR-30 with its round cavity and the semi-spherical plunger would be some better than the conventional square hole-round hopper design of the Culver types. I never could tell that it does better, besides it doesn't have clicks.
The most repeatable volumetric measure I ever used was the Belding and Mull. It had a pre-measure cavity that dumped into the final-measure cavity but those measures are really scarse. This pre-measure feature eliminates the problem Charles described above.
All this is why I've used the RCBS 1500 Chargemaster since they came out in 2005.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Got to "Lighten Up'
I make feeble attempts at trying to make people grin a bit and take the stress out of these subjects. A little story about Lay or Bust: When I was perhaps 6 or 7 we had chickens at home as did most of the folks around us. Back then, as a Pro-mo I suppose Lay or Bust use to come in bags with various prints on them and the bags used by folks to make clothing. It took several washings to get the Lay or Bust logo washed out of the fabric but it did come out. My family was shopping one Saturday and a woman came in to the store wearing a skirt with a print just like the one on the Lay Or Bust bag we had at home. When she walked past us there prominently displayed on her butt was the entire LAY OR BUST logo. My parent's laughed more about this for years and even at 6 or 7 I knew enough about life to realize how funny it was.
I make feeble attempts at trying to make people grin a bit and take the stress out of these subjects. A little story about Lay or Bust: When I was perhaps 6 or 7 we had chickens at home as did most of the folks around us. Back then, as a Pro-mo I suppose Lay or Bust use to come in bags with various prints on them and the bags used by folks to make clothing. It took several washings to get the Lay or Bust logo washed out of the fabric but it did come out. My family was shopping one Saturday and a woman came in to the store wearing a skirt with a print just like the one on the Lay Or Bust bag we had at home. When she walked past us there prominently displayed on her butt was the entire LAY OR BUST logo. My parent's laughed more about this for years and even at 6 or 7 I knew enough about life to realize how funny it was.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Practice, Practice, Practice
I have found Francis to be right about the Harrels and I now use it while testing at the range. The problem I have though it the TAP. I tend to vary my tapping a bunch and guess my gross motor skills ain't what they use to be. I still prefer to load at home and focus solely on shooting at matches. I can make enough dumb mistakes shootin so don't feel I need to introduce any more distractions than are allready there.
I have seem more than once, folks not prime their cases or get powder in some, etc, etc. Like I said -- - - -
I now must have 600 30-44 cases made up that can be used any time, conservatively 450 30-BR cases as well as 240 30-284-1.650. Loading for multi yardages isn't usually a problem BUT if one goes to the Nationals in Iowa this year and shoots two rifles -- - - - - Probably don't have enough money or time to make enough brass to pre-load for that one!
I have found Francis to be right about the Harrels and I now use it while testing at the range. The problem I have though it the TAP. I tend to vary my tapping a bunch and guess my gross motor skills ain't what they use to be. I still prefer to load at home and focus solely on shooting at matches. I can make enough dumb mistakes shootin so don't feel I need to introduce any more distractions than are allready there.
I have seem more than once, folks not prime their cases or get powder in some, etc, etc. Like I said -- - - -I now must have 600 30-44 cases made up that can be used any time, conservatively 450 30-BR cases as well as 240 30-284-1.650. Loading for multi yardages isn't usually a problem BUT if one goes to the Nationals in Iowa this year and shoots two rifles -- - - - - Probably don't have enough money or time to make enough brass to pre-load for that one!
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B.Johnson
Guest
Has anyone tried an old Belding & Mull for throwing consistent charges. I know it is slow, but is it as slow as that RCBS combo? I know you can't set it in click's, but for throwing accurate charges, that old design is hard to beat
Jerry;
I got rid of my B&M ( with the original box) that I bought back in the late 50's or so, because at the time, I was using 3031 and some other long grained stuff and didn't care for the way the kernals were cut off. Bob White ended up with it. The other thing I didn't care for was having to stick the tube with the micrometer adjustment up the hole, move the handle back and forth, then take same tube full of powder and dump it into your cartidge case.
As far as the harrels measure with I own, Dallesandro makes a dandy repacement "hopper" for it. It is as a funnel and replaces what the measure came with.
I got rid of my B&M ( with the original box) that I bought back in the late 50's or so, because at the time, I was using 3031 and some other long grained stuff and didn't care for the way the kernals were cut off. Bob White ended up with it. The other thing I didn't care for was having to stick the tube with the micrometer adjustment up the hole, move the handle back and forth, then take same tube full of powder and dump it into your cartidge case.
As far as the harrels measure with I own, Dallesandro makes a dandy repacement "hopper" for it. It is as a funnel and replaces what the measure came with.
M
Mike Swartz
Guest
About a year ago I bought a powder throw from RFD Rifles in Canp Verde, Az. This may be as good as the late Jones or middle Bruno throws.With the benchrest powders we use these days it does a great job. I would recommend the throw and finding one may be a bit easies than a Jones or a Bruno. Great tools all.
Mike Swartz
Mike Swartz
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paul75167
Guest
K
Kim Merrill
Guest
Tap tap
Thanks for the tip. I filled the bottle and started using a simple little tap at the top and bottom of the throw. The consistency change drastically Next I will experiment with different levels of powder in the storage bottle. But if full works I will just keep it full!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the tip. I filled the bottle and started using a simple little tap at the top and bottom of the throw. The consistency change drastically
Next I will experiment with different levels of powder in the storage bottle. But if full works I will just keep it full!!!!!!!!!Boyd Allen
Active member
I have the Harrell measure with the roller bearings. After testing, I removed the baffle. I keep the level in the bottle quite low, and add powder as needed to keep it within the range that I want. I have done more experimenting with off the wall measure technique than anyone that I know of (except for Jerry Hensler). With practice, and a different technique, I have been able to stay within +- .1 gr. with 133, but it isn't easy. The main advantage of the Harrell measure is that it can be set up for 6 divisions from number (click) to number, and that it packs easily. On my measure each of these divisions is worth slightly less than .1 gr. I have found that no measure throws to my desired variance without unusual technique, and that different measures require slightly different methods to get there. The most "automatic" measure that I have is an old SAECO that I found on EBAY in like new condition. It has a heavy knocker. If I raise the handle, leave it up raise the knocker to where it will stay up on its own, nudge it to make it fall, and after it comes to rest slowly lower the handle to where the cavity closes, I get consistent results, time after time. I use a low powder level and no baffle. One little tip, If you use a Lyman 55 with the big slide closed and the smaller two even and pulled well back, with the right technique, results can be quite good. Since the advent of small portable electronic scales, which can be used to verify measure settings, an accurate micrometer or click feature is not an absolute necessity for loading at the range. I loaned a new shooter my Lyman and an inexpensive scale that Midway sells, and he has been able to get excellent results, allowing him to spend his money on things that have a more direct impact on accuracy. No, I am not giving up my Harrell measure, I like its features, and I have mastered the necessarry technique. BTW for those that worry about charge variance, you might notice that most matches are won by shooters using thrown charges, and judging by observations of their techniques I would guess that they are probably only holding +- .15 gr. at best.
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Bill Ohio
Guest
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Big Al
Guest
By real live count, I have 12 powder measures. Over the years I think I have bought and tried most of the better measures. Here is the break down, with small size grain powders about half work vary well and are consistent.
It's when you get in to the hard to cut bigger stick powders, that none of them work worth a ice cube in Hades.
I don't throw big stick powders at the range, so I can throw from my Harrell's and trickle on a scale. I like Harrell's better than my old Neil Jones converted #55 Lyman. I can't see it is any better measure than any other of it's type.
Why I don't go to the RCBS electronic is beyond me, I guess I don't like to load powder on anything I have to plug into the wall. I've heard good things about the RCBS.
I was fixing up my mind to buy the Prometheus before they went out of business, even though I'm not into shooting LR here in Alaska,(cause we don't have and LR range open to the public).
As long as you stick with the smaller grain or ball powders, you would be hard pressed to beat the Redding BR or the Harrell's. I like the Redding, but you won't get my Harrell's away from me anytime soon.
It's when you get in to the hard to cut bigger stick powders, that none of them work worth a ice cube in Hades.
I don't throw big stick powders at the range, so I can throw from my Harrell's and trickle on a scale. I like Harrell's better than my old Neil Jones converted #55 Lyman. I can't see it is any better measure than any other of it's type.
Why I don't go to the RCBS electronic is beyond me, I guess I don't like to load powder on anything I have to plug into the wall. I've heard good things about the RCBS.
I was fixing up my mind to buy the Prometheus before they went out of business, even though I'm not into shooting LR here in Alaska,(cause we don't have and LR range open to the public).
As long as you stick with the smaller grain or ball powders, you would be hard pressed to beat the Redding BR or the Harrell's. I like the Redding, but you won't get my Harrell's away from me anytime soon.