r44astro
New member
Yes it did. I guess I'll wait until the Nationals this month to find out if I shoot better.
Controlling Runnout?
- Thread starter JDBraddy
- Start date
Yes it did. I guess I'll wait until the Nationals this month to find out if I shoot better.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Al,
A good friend that has a lathe and mill, and has built some very accurate rifles, has gotten into benchrest this last year, and because he has the tools, and the energy, he looked into the alignment of a couple of his Rock Chucker presses. What he did to test was to raise the ram to the point where a case was just making contact with the die, lower it carefully and then see if he could move the case in a particular direction. By raising and lowering, and pushing one way and then another, he was able to find out that the shell holder was being held off center by the tip of the spring clip, and by the slot in the ram not extending far enough back. Without going into every little detail, he modified his shell holder, and the top of the ram so that the case would be allowed to find center. This included applying some grease to the top of the ram, to facilitate the shell holder sliding a little. When he strokes his press, he carefully brings the case up into contact, lowers it slightly, and then completes his stroke. Doing these things has reduced the runout of his sized brass. It was not real bad in the first place, but it is measurably better now. The idea that started him out on this was one of two that I proposed to him over lunch at a local carnerceria. He ended up trying both, and they both worked. It is fun working with someone that will jump right in and try things right away, if he thinks that they might improve results. The other one involved improving the performance of Redding Competition seaters. By trimming the sliding sleeve so that the case rather than the shell holder pushed it up in the die, and putting lining the mouth of the sliding sleeve with some painters masking tape (the green stuff that comes off easier) carefully, with a precise butt joint, he was able to improve his ogive to head consistency, as well as the concentricity of his loaded rounds. He is a very careful workman, who is all about finding better ways to do things. In the not too distant past, these qualities were expressed in his building of some very good race engines.
A good friend that has a lathe and mill, and has built some very accurate rifles, has gotten into benchrest this last year, and because he has the tools, and the energy, he looked into the alignment of a couple of his Rock Chucker presses. What he did to test was to raise the ram to the point where a case was just making contact with the die, lower it carefully and then see if he could move the case in a particular direction. By raising and lowering, and pushing one way and then another, he was able to find out that the shell holder was being held off center by the tip of the spring clip, and by the slot in the ram not extending far enough back. Without going into every little detail, he modified his shell holder, and the top of the ram so that the case would be allowed to find center. This included applying some grease to the top of the ram, to facilitate the shell holder sliding a little. When he strokes his press, he carefully brings the case up into contact, lowers it slightly, and then completes his stroke. Doing these things has reduced the runout of his sized brass. It was not real bad in the first place, but it is measurably better now. The idea that started him out on this was one of two that I proposed to him over lunch at a local carnerceria. He ended up trying both, and they both worked. It is fun working with someone that will jump right in and try things right away, if he thinks that they might improve results. The other one involved improving the performance of Redding Competition seaters. By trimming the sliding sleeve so that the case rather than the shell holder pushed it up in the die, and putting lining the mouth of the sliding sleeve with some painters masking tape (the green stuff that comes off easier) carefully, with a precise butt joint, he was able to improve his ogive to head consistency, as well as the concentricity of his loaded rounds. He is a very careful workman, who is all about finding better ways to do things. In the not too distant past, these qualities were expressed in his building of some very good race engines.
r44astro
New member
Ditto
I will add that when one must work with excess movement of brass, culling for concentricity is IME the most effective method of limiting runout.
Brass WILL blow out on the soft/thin side
Brass WILL be worked more on the soft/thin side
Brass will then work-harden more on this thin side, which in turn makes it less soft,
which changes the sizing characteristics of that particular case,
which can lead to some less than accurate conclusions.....
Cause and effect are not always obvious.
opinionby
al
Brass WILL blow out on the soft/thin side
Brass WILL be worked more on the soft/thin side
Brass will then work-harden more on this thin side, which in turn makes it less soft,
which changes the sizing characteristics of that particular case,
which can lead to some less than accurate conclusions.....
Cause and effect are not always obvious.
opinionby
al
r44astro
New member
I am sure you correct, being a jeweler, I understand work hardening on alloys or at least I think I do. I have seen drastic improvement in run out since I have done what I reported. I guess the proof will be if I do better at NBRSA group Nats the end of this month. Hope to see you there. Look me up, I'll be camping in front of Bart and Billy.
Bill
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
a real loose shellholder and press will let the die do the work instead of forcing it one direction. jackie schmidt made his partner presses very loose for this reason. once you just let go and let your die take the wheel your cases will almost have a halo around them when you open the box and you wont even need that neco gauge anymore- its just that nice (if your die is good). r44astro has discovered this in his travels and he told me he sleeps better at nite. trust me he needs all the beauty sleep 14hrs can give you.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Al,
This was not one case, he has the right equipment to measure and knows how to use it. Just because it does not fit how you do things does not make it invalid. Also, no one who shoots at the top level with PPCs follows the method that you outlined...no one.
Boyd
This was not one case, he has the right equipment to measure and knows how to use it. Just because it does not fit how you do things does not make it invalid. Also, no one who shoots at the top level with PPCs follows the method that you outlined...no one.
Boyd
Huhh???
Actually, they nearly ALL do. This is precisely where the concept of fitted dies originated. And where it reigns.
moving brass less is the answer......period.
I'm not sure why you're making these assertions, nor which "method I outlined".....sorry to have stepped into your discussion.
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
Al,
Sorry about that, I was skimming, and overlooked the when working with inconsistent brass part. I was remembering your older posts about the virtues of chambers that are very large in the back, and looking at the evenness of the expansion to sort cases. What I meant was that no one does that in the match game, because virtually none that I know of starts with bad brass and sort it. I am the one who was wrong on this because I got in too big of a hurry.
Boyd
Sorry about that, I was skimming, and overlooked the when working with inconsistent brass part. I was remembering your older posts about the virtues of chambers that are very large in the back, and looking at the evenness of the expansion to sort cases. What I meant was that no one does that in the match game, because virtually none that I know of starts with bad brass and sort it. I am the one who was wrong on this because I got in too big of a hurry.
Boyd
r44astro
New member
More like 16 hours, thanks for your support Dusty!
Al is in line with the "bananna shaped case" idea of Merrill Martin. I think he and Creighton Audette were the ones to stress the importance of using good cases in the pages of Precision Shooting starting in the 1980's.
Merrill Martin, Precision Shooting, Apr. 1989, vol. 34, No. 12, pp. 8 9.
Merrill Martin, Precision Shooting, Oct. 1990, vol. 36, No. 6, pp. 18-20.
Basically, Martin's idea was that neck turning alone does not give truely straight cases, because the body run out is still there. Firing & sizing will then give a curved, bananna shaped case & out of square case heads.
Back then people were neck sizing in a Wilson type neck sizer (no bushings back then). These days, full length resizing in a die that minimally sizes to make chambering the round easier is more common, and we're using better cases. Many people have remarked at having shot very good groups & scores while fire forming.
Regards,
Ron
The difference between Merrill Martin's "idea" and many others' "ideas" is that he actually spent the inordinate amount of TIME needed to exhaustively test stuff which (Ferris Pindell, Harold Vaughn, Jim Borden, Skip Otto et al excepted) most people DO NOT.
It's like carrying around walletbragger groups and claiming "this is what my gun will do all day long, "If I Do My Part!""
Which is hogwash....
There's a TON of opinion out there but unless something is repeatable, reproducible ON CALL, it's just another anecdotal Blind Hog story.
Brass prep and maintenance is one of the huge mysteries of reloading and poorly understood. I will say that my actually LISSENING TO guys like Ken Howell I can now make cases from 6PPC to 338 Lapua Mag that exhibit no significant runout and can be fired 50-100 times and that I DO get ES numbers in the single digits.
Now, when folks want to argue that this is unimportant, that "Joe Blowe won all his fake wood with once-fired military cases" then have at it...... but it's completely immaterial, irrelevant to the discussion at hand which IS how to make and maintain straight cases.
I KNOW how to control runout. In ANY chambering on the planet.
I also KNOW how to completely eliminate the "click" (which is probably what Boyd's referring to re "my method") but that's another subject entirely.
And I KNOW how to bring velocity variance into line, which allows one to eliminate that as a variable when testing for the importance of stuff like "case concentricity"....... because I do it, every day. More importantly, I can tell anyone how to do it, this way it's no longer just my opinion, it's repeatable provable FACT.
To make straight cases you must fireform them properly, PERIOD, they cannot be "straightened," and to maintain this scrupulous concentricity you must move them less.
There is no other option.
Picture a ground steel rod or a fine, straight piece of spring steel wire stock fitted for a sliding fit thru a reamed hole. Now WHAKK that sliding rod a few times to kink it....... do you REALLY think you can now make a die thru which you can pass this buggered up rod to "straighten it back out"...??????
REALLY??
al
And BTW I agree w/Dusty, "let the die take the wheel"...... If you've enough bind in your system to actually SKEW case bases over then your press has been run over by a large piece of equipment somewhere in it's past. I've got two broken and re-welded presses that I got free from folks who "realized that they were ruined but salvaged them for unimportant stuff" which I use to make PERFECT rounds.
I have used presses that weighed 50lb. For years I hunted for an old Hollywood like my buddy uses because "It's so millimetrically straight and precise that.....blahh blahh, blahh...." until I realized that building the perfect press and then cramming a cast iron "shellholder" in as the critical link wasn't exactically "best machining practice..."
I've got over 100 shellholders, some of them one-offs.....
I have an ENORMOUS equipment graveyard, acquired by lissening to other folks' opinions on how to "fix" stuff....
And then there's gems like "carefully stuff a rubber o-ring all up in there" .......
LO-freaking-L!!!
Yeahhhhh, 'at's ALIGNMENT right thar right thar! Use the T'READS for alignment.......
I'll back on out now, but if, after the dust settles anyone really wants to make straight cases I can tell you how to.
EVERY time, and EVERY size case,
al
I have used presses that weighed 50lb. For years I hunted for an old Hollywood like my buddy uses because "It's so millimetrically straight and precise that.....blahh blahh, blahh...." until I realized that building the perfect press and then cramming a cast iron "shellholder" in as the critical link wasn't exactically "best machining practice..."
I've got over 100 shellholders, some of them one-offs.....
I have an ENORMOUS equipment graveyard, acquired by lissening to other folks' opinions on how to "fix" stuff....
And then there's gems like "carefully stuff a rubber o-ring all up in there" .......
LO-freaking-L!!!
Yeahhhhh, 'at's ALIGNMENT right thar right thar! Use the T'READS for alignment.......
I'll back on out now, but if, after the dust settles anyone really wants to make straight cases I can tell you how to.
EVERY time, and EVERY size case,
al
Ohhhh, and lest I forget..... (sorry, Hot Button 
) ...... one of my favorites is the guys who promote fiddling with shellholders until you can "preload" the press by burying that handle and then FORCING it over the hump, guys who spend hours of trial and error and machine time until you can get that die to not only contact the shellholder but to to cam over (bend the press even more) in an attempt to "make the sizing effect consistent."
Obviously these folks have never gotten the science down well enough to realize that to properly maintain cases you must have the ability to adjust the sizing effect day-to-day to accommodate little things like temperature, brass hardness, caselube consistency........
And WHY bend the press just a little more again???
LOL!
al
) ...... one of my favorites is the guys who promote fiddling with shellholders until you can "preload" the press by burying that handle and then FORCING it over the hump, guys who spend hours of trial and error and machine time until you can get that die to not only contact the shellholder but to to cam over (bend the press even more) in an attempt to "make the sizing effect consistent."Obviously these folks have never gotten the science down well enough to realize that to properly maintain cases you must have the ability to adjust the sizing effect day-to-day to accommodate little things like temperature, brass hardness, caselube consistency........
And WHY bend the press just a little more again???
LOL!
al
Boyd Allen
Active member
Al,
Your argument holds no water. What my friend did, works. The results were slightly, but measurably better after the modifications. As to O rings, I stack a Hornady lock ring over a Lee. The former to lock the latter in position on the die, and use that combination on the FL die that I use on my 6PPC cases. When I first tried the Lee I noticed a slight improvement in the concentricity of my sized brass. The other advantage of this setup is that it makes minor bump adjustments easier to do. Also, you seem to be implying that those who modify presses are less than intelligent. Your might want to run that by some bullet die makers, and users. Simply put, alignment matters, and factory equipment may not produce it.
Boyd
Your argument holds no water. What my friend did, works. The results were slightly, but measurably better after the modifications. As to O rings, I stack a Hornady lock ring over a Lee. The former to lock the latter in position on the die, and use that combination on the FL die that I use on my 6PPC cases. When I first tried the Lee I noticed a slight improvement in the concentricity of my sized brass. The other advantage of this setup is that it makes minor bump adjustments easier to do. Also, you seem to be implying that those who modify presses are less than intelligent. Your might want to run that by some bullet die makers, and users. Simply put, alignment matters, and factory equipment may not produce it.
Boyd
Boyd Allen
Active member
Your must have used a machinist's square to build your house. Standards have tolerances, and some that are less rigorous are appropriate for a given set of applications. There is a point beyond which the advantage of a higher standard gets entirely lost in the noise. What I wrote was that my friend did some careful evaluation of two of his reloading presses, found some problems, and fixed them, and that careful measurement of sized cases before and after, showed that the modifications worked. You were not there, so any opinion that you might have about this is pure, unsupported speculation.
JDBraddy......
sorry that this may turn into an argument but I'll continue to attempt to answer your question. Because it's a good one. and there IS AN ANSWER, you have given the necessary information and THERE IS AN ANSWER.
You ask "WHY PPC GOOD" and WHY others NOT good all same-same??"........Right? And the answer is, "Because Your PPC Die Fits Better"
But all of this is begging the REAL question which is "WHY STRAIGHT AMMO?"
And again, there is an ANSWER.
Let's change gears for a second. Let's ask "why those big fat tires on a drag car?" WHY??? The WHY is what's important. The reason for those big fat tires is to put more rubber on the road, to promote "hookup"...... and any racer knows that once you get the hookup you got all sorts of other stuff to deal with but you will always need those big fat tires.
So WHY "straight ammo?" Why all this talk of concentricitty? WHY does it matter? And there is an ANSWER to your question, not an opinion, not "something alwina made up" but an ANSWER. The answer to your question is "to promote alignment of the bullet to the bore" and furthermore "to promote consistent VIBRATION PATTERNS in the system." Now many here may disagree with this last statement re vibration but one must ask those who disagree, "have YOU ever managed to achieve true. tunable accuracy from something OTHER THAN A PPC???"
I have.
And many others have.
And those who HAVE actually done it will tell you that they achieved this accuracy through FIT of the loaded rounds to the rifle system. It has been shown many times and in many ways and by many people 'not alinwa' that FIT is important. And any of you shooters out there who care enough to actually TRY IT can easily make sloppy, loose reloads for your accurate rifle (probably a 6PPC) and see for yourselves that the most accurate rifle will not shoot to potential with sloppy, loose ammunition.
Here's where your problem lies, here's where your inaccuracy originates, here's the DIFFERENCE between your 6PPC and the three other rifles mentioned.
FIT.
That's it.
Your 223 and 338 have big sloppy chambers, they do not have the FIT of your PPC. And herein lies your problem.
Let's just say you brought your stuff over to my house and we "straightened" all your reloads until they mic'd out and ran out on the gauges like little machined missiles. (I have all the equipment to do this...... I've got two concentricity gages with freaking LEVERS on them so's you can bend the ammunition like Savage straightens their barrels. I've got 11 presses and dozens of dies and blocks and gadgets and gizmos AND a lathe and a mill..... we can MAKE your ammo straight!!!) or let's just say that you modify your own stuff (or, most likely, CULL your own stuff, it's cheaper!) until you get a bunch of "straight like your PPC cases.
Now you have cases just a straight and perty as you PPC rounds. They should shoot gooder eh???
Ya THINK???
nope.
They will not shoot any gooder.
Because they don't FIT any better..........doesn't matter how STRAIGHT they are they're still just laying there in that over-sized chamber with air all round them and when you drop the 60,000lb hammer all HELL will break loose. Long before that bullet moves that case will be slamming and jumping around like a caged weasel......because it's too small for the chamber.......
So, here's where the rubber hits the road,
you want to try something that will actually WORK??? First of all you must test to see if the 223 and 338 are actually CAPABLE of good accuracy. And here's how you can do that. First problem is FIT, so we make FIT........MAKE some good cases by doing whatever you have to do to achieve a crush-fit fireform and produce a set of cases that are STRAIGHT and that fit your chamber perfectly. It won't cost much. You can absolutely make cases just as straight as your PPC.
Proper fireforming MAKES straight cases. It's the only way.
Now we get to the second problem, neck diameter. Accuracy is dependent on a series of alignments among other things. One of the necessary alignments is that of the bullet to the bore. If your neck is oversized you will not be able to achieve really good alignment. Your bullet WILL BE canted as much as the neck clearance allows. This is a simple mechanical fact. The bullet doesn't magically float into the hole..... it's DRIVEN in by 600lb of turbulent pressure. And it will cock to one side. But all is not lost! There is a reason short/fat bullets with stubby ogives have the reputation for being accurate. They will "self-straighten." Starting a football straight is much harder than starting a soup can straight....... So shoot soup cans, get some short Match bullets, something like 50-52gr for the 223 and maybe some MatchKings for the 338 (you're kinda' stuck here) but do what you can to use light/short bullets.
Or build some tight-neck cases.......
And now you've got STRAIGHT cases that FIT as good as your PPC. Your system can achieve it's full potential. Get some necksize-only Wilson hand dies, using these dies you can load and shoot using straight, fitted cases...... just like your PPC.
For a while.
Until the brass gets too tight to re-chamber.
Which brings us full-circle as to WHY FITTED DIES EXIST! Fitted dies exist to MAINTAIN straight cases. Fitted full length dies exist because they allow you to shoot as accurately as your rifle allows, more than once or thrice.
I sincerely hope this gives you something to think about.
If not, I meant well
al
sorry that this may turn into an argument but I'll continue to attempt to answer your question. Because it's a good one. and there IS AN ANSWER, you have given the necessary information and THERE IS AN ANSWER.
You ask "WHY PPC GOOD" and WHY others NOT good all same-same??"........Right? And the answer is, "Because Your PPC Die Fits Better"
But all of this is begging the REAL question which is "WHY STRAIGHT AMMO?"
And again, there is an ANSWER.
Let's change gears for a second. Let's ask "why those big fat tires on a drag car?" WHY??? The WHY is what's important. The reason for those big fat tires is to put more rubber on the road, to promote "hookup"...... and any racer knows that once you get the hookup you got all sorts of other stuff to deal with but you will always need those big fat tires.
So WHY "straight ammo?" Why all this talk of concentricitty? WHY does it matter? And there is an ANSWER to your question, not an opinion, not "something alwina made up" but an ANSWER. The answer to your question is "to promote alignment of the bullet to the bore" and furthermore "to promote consistent VIBRATION PATTERNS in the system." Now many here may disagree with this last statement re vibration but one must ask those who disagree, "have YOU ever managed to achieve true. tunable accuracy from something OTHER THAN A PPC???"
I have.
And many others have.
And those who HAVE actually done it will tell you that they achieved this accuracy through FIT of the loaded rounds to the rifle system. It has been shown many times and in many ways and by many people 'not alinwa' that FIT is important. And any of you shooters out there who care enough to actually TRY IT can easily make sloppy, loose reloads for your accurate rifle (probably a 6PPC) and see for yourselves that the most accurate rifle will not shoot to potential with sloppy, loose ammunition.
Here's where your problem lies, here's where your inaccuracy originates, here's the DIFFERENCE between your 6PPC and the three other rifles mentioned.
FIT.
That's it.
Your 223 and 338 have big sloppy chambers, they do not have the FIT of your PPC. And herein lies your problem.
Let's just say you brought your stuff over to my house and we "straightened" all your reloads until they mic'd out and ran out on the gauges like little machined missiles. (I have all the equipment to do this...... I've got two concentricity gages with freaking LEVERS on them so's you can bend the ammunition like Savage straightens their barrels. I've got 11 presses and dozens of dies and blocks and gadgets and gizmos AND a lathe and a mill..... we can MAKE your ammo straight!!!) or let's just say that you modify your own stuff (or, most likely, CULL your own stuff, it's cheaper!) until you get a bunch of "straight like your PPC cases.
Now you have cases just a straight and perty as you PPC rounds. They should shoot gooder eh???
Ya THINK???
nope.
They will not shoot any gooder.
Because they don't FIT any better..........doesn't matter how STRAIGHT they are they're still just laying there in that over-sized chamber with air all round them and when you drop the 60,000lb hammer all HELL will break loose. Long before that bullet moves that case will be slamming and jumping around like a caged weasel......because it's too small for the chamber.......
So, here's where the rubber hits the road,
you want to try something that will actually WORK??? First of all you must test to see if the 223 and 338 are actually CAPABLE of good accuracy. And here's how you can do that. First problem is FIT, so we make FIT........MAKE some good cases by doing whatever you have to do to achieve a crush-fit fireform and produce a set of cases that are STRAIGHT and that fit your chamber perfectly. It won't cost much. You can absolutely make cases just as straight as your PPC.
Proper fireforming MAKES straight cases. It's the only way.
Now we get to the second problem, neck diameter. Accuracy is dependent on a series of alignments among other things. One of the necessary alignments is that of the bullet to the bore. If your neck is oversized you will not be able to achieve really good alignment. Your bullet WILL BE canted as much as the neck clearance allows. This is a simple mechanical fact. The bullet doesn't magically float into the hole..... it's DRIVEN in by 600lb of turbulent pressure. And it will cock to one side. But all is not lost! There is a reason short/fat bullets with stubby ogives have the reputation for being accurate. They will "self-straighten." Starting a football straight is much harder than starting a soup can straight....... So shoot soup cans, get some short Match bullets, something like 50-52gr for the 223 and maybe some MatchKings for the 338 (you're kinda' stuck here) but do what you can to use light/short bullets.
Or build some tight-neck cases.......
And now you've got STRAIGHT cases that FIT as good as your PPC. Your system can achieve it's full potential. Get some necksize-only Wilson hand dies, using these dies you can load and shoot using straight, fitted cases...... just like your PPC.
For a while.
Until the brass gets too tight to re-chamber.
Which brings us full-circle as to WHY FITTED DIES EXIST! Fitted dies exist to MAINTAIN straight cases. Fitted full length dies exist because they allow you to shoot as accurately as your rifle allows, more than once or thrice.
I sincerely hope this gives you something to think about.
If not, I meant well
al
r44astro
New member
Holy crap
Did I get Al Pi**ed off? I hope not! The only thing I am concerned with is my agg period. I compete, not implying that everyone here does not. The only time it counts is when the flag goes up. I try all kinds of things. But my only dream is a hummer barrel that just does not give a flying fu&** what I shove up it's a*(()s.
Bill Greene AKA trout
Did I get Al Pi**ed off? I hope not! The only thing I am concerned with is my agg period. I compete, not implying that everyone here does not. The only time it counts is when the flag goes up. I try all kinds of things. But my only dream is a hummer barrel that just does not give a flying fu&** what I shove up it's a*(()s.
Bill Greene AKA trout
Joe Woosman
Member
Come on Al... Tell us how you really feel. BTW, do you have voice to text software or are you going the carpal tunnel route?
The next time I set up to make some brass I'm gonna take a video for ya. With your current knowledge and passion for precision your gonna need some new equipment to take it further.
The next time I set up to make some brass I'm gonna take a video for ya. With your current knowledge and passion for precision your gonna need some new equipment to take it further.