Prince has an excellent point. At this time, given good ammo and conditions, a whole lot more shooters have a chance to win or place in the top few. The average equipment that competitors have is much better than it used to be. A large part of it in my opinion is consistency in the available components. There is much less work required of gunsmiths. With actions basically good out of the box and stocks coming ready to install, two major areas of inconsistency are pretty much a thing of the past. IF barrels would get to that point, good guns would almost be a given. Tuners and triggers have been there for a while, although lately triggers seem to be causing some issues. Even the rests and other accessories are better. It's like any other sport, as it matures the market meets the needs and the overall sport tightens up and becomes much tougher to be the best.
Change in rimfire BR over the last 10 years
- Thread starter Kent Owens
- Start date
john prince
Member
REVISED INFO......last year at Fresno outdoors 11 shooters the last place shooter agged 2100 not 1900+.
michaelthomas
www.thomasrifles.com
What was said about air rifles is mostly true. You won’t save any money up front with an air gun.
If you like to shoot, you will make up any difference very quickly. I average at least 5000 rounds a month… year round. That would cost me about 1800$ a month in Rimfire….but it’s about 100$ for the lead wire to swage my slugs. It takes about 6 hours to swage 5000 slugs. I usually spend 15 minutes a day rather than multiple hours at a time.
Is air currently as good as the top unlimited Rimfire….No, it’s not. It’s as good as the mid level unlimited, though. I’m not done yet.
Nobody I’ve seen in air uses lilja barrels, btw.
Most of the guys I know in Rimfire shoot very little by comparison.
Mike
If you like to shoot, you will make up any difference very quickly. I average at least 5000 rounds a month… year round. That would cost me about 1800$ a month in Rimfire….but it’s about 100$ for the lead wire to swage my slugs. It takes about 6 hours to swage 5000 slugs. I usually spend 15 minutes a day rather than multiple hours at a time.
Is air currently as good as the top unlimited Rimfire….No, it’s not. It’s as good as the mid level unlimited, though. I’m not done yet.
Nobody I’ve seen in air uses lilja barrels, btw.
Most of the guys I know in Rimfire shoot very little by comparison.
Mike
Great to have Mike also in this thread...
I think we put much emphasis on cost.
If cost was to be an issue, no Karting, motorbike, or boat racing, just to name a few, were declining. Maybe cost/reward ratio is the key.
Around the same ammo cost, ISSF, IPSC and PRS, are growing too, so I'll take cost with a bit of salt.
Yes, that's a fact, in the long run, air ammo is less expensive vs rimfire ammo. However, air rifle requires much more maintenance than their rimfire counterparts.
Other BR burden is the paraphernalia of gear... and air rifle is no simpler either, on the contrary. On top of all BR logistics you have to put an air cylinder, a compressor (or regular visits to a scuba dive shop), you name it.
I've already talked about it, but I take it here again.
Look at Archery. 20 years ago was dying, slowly but dying, then Mr. Easton came to drive the discipline, changed the approach, the competition format, and today, Archery is growing strongly. And it's not cheap, well, in fact, what's cheap today?
The biggest change was the head to head competition, broadcasted and live commented.
This format took a huge resistance from the shooters and leaders at that time, but slowly emerge as the right one.
Today, they have more sponsors that we can dream of, public in competition is always granted, the world federation has a property broadcast channel, and matches all around the world.
What I would like is leaders, organisers, the ones that decide, please take a deep look at what they have done. See, and understand the change it brought to Archery. Maybe we can do the very same.
Another very important difference between them and us, is they are driven by ONE big organisation, instead of us, a plethora of small business...
I think we put much emphasis on cost.
If cost was to be an issue, no Karting, motorbike, or boat racing, just to name a few, were declining. Maybe cost/reward ratio is the key.
Around the same ammo cost, ISSF, IPSC and PRS, are growing too, so I'll take cost with a bit of salt.
Yes, that's a fact, in the long run, air ammo is less expensive vs rimfire ammo. However, air rifle requires much more maintenance than their rimfire counterparts.
Other BR burden is the paraphernalia of gear... and air rifle is no simpler either, on the contrary. On top of all BR logistics you have to put an air cylinder, a compressor (or regular visits to a scuba dive shop), you name it.
I've already talked about it, but I take it here again.
Look at Archery. 20 years ago was dying, slowly but dying, then Mr. Easton came to drive the discipline, changed the approach, the competition format, and today, Archery is growing strongly. And it's not cheap, well, in fact, what's cheap today?
The biggest change was the head to head competition, broadcasted and live commented.
This format took a huge resistance from the shooters and leaders at that time, but slowly emerge as the right one.
Today, they have more sponsors that we can dream of, public in competition is always granted, the world federation has a property broadcast channel, and matches all around the world.
What I would like is leaders, organisers, the ones that decide, please take a deep look at what they have done. See, and understand the change it brought to Archery. Maybe we can do the very same.
Another very important difference between them and us, is they are driven by ONE big organisation, instead of us, a plethora of small business...
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Kent Owens
Well-known member
Gentlemen, interesting observations, and interesting reading. Thanks to all who have contributed to the thread so far. IR50/50 and RBA 3 gun were my games of choice back in the day. I enjoyed, and loved the Sporter class best of all. Those games seemed to have declined a lot.
With all due respect Pedro, you are wrong, at least as it applies to this country.
Here, the RFBR demographic is substantially blue collar and guys make sacrifices to participate often. The other primary demographic is retirees, fixed income guys, recently fighting through 9% inflation.
With costs and the current frustration with ammunition these things, at the margin, make a difference, even a big difference. Remember, the biggest drop off has been IR50/50, two guns needed, different ammo for both as often as not, old guys struggling with 6.5X scopes, exponentially higher entry challenge.
I have been around cars/racing my whole adult life, even today in retirement, I have had, while working, a few clients boat racing, even off shore. It is a whole other population, largely.
Even CFBR, studies have been done to attract a new, younger level of participation, even including free introductory schools, free equipment availability.
Unfortunately, the target population for expansion even RFBR, is having kids, concentrating on family, buying houses, etc.
I cannot tell you how many people I know, RFBR/CFBR that have fallen out with cost being a substantial if not primary factor.
You are, however, spot on with the cost/reward over time issue.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Perhaps it's evolution but what I see is the strong movement to Unlimited rifles. Perhaps the day of the three rifle Agg. IS over. I still shoot HBR rifles and will as long as I am able. Love the challenge of the 6X scoped guns. I gave up on chasing ammo. I can make nearly perfect CF ammo so that takes a big load off. I just got weary of the whole thing I guess. I will miss it but at my age, I need to focus on what is easier for me.
Pete
Pete
No worries Tim, that's the wonder of a healthy discussion...
You brought to the table couple of interesting subjects.
1. Even with no costs we struggle to get more people on BR
2. We are loosing shooters because of cost
Regarding 1), I can give my family example, my sons, having all for free, don't want to shoot because there's no action at all. I have seen a lot of youngsters, sons or shooter friends, not staying for long.
This is the biggest issue... no new or young shooters.
Talking 2), cost, yes it's expensive but again, I don't see top shooters giving up on cost. It touch majority of middle field pack. That's why I introduced the potential cost/reward ratio as something to work on. If I spend x and my reward is w, I'll stay, but spending 2x for the same reward I'll quit. Something like that.
Pete brought another interesting point.
Moving to just one discipline, being unlimited the easiest to fulfil the majority desire.
Maybe I'm wrong again, but I think it's the logistics burden the culprit. It's already hard to bring all bench gear, and on top of it, two or three rifles more... we are not getting any younger, so heavyweight time is gone. And, if I shoot only one rifle, I reduce the ammo cost by 60%, for the same reward.
I love BR, I have a great passion about it. But I struggle to contaminate others...
You brought to the table couple of interesting subjects.
1. Even with no costs we struggle to get more people on BR
2. We are loosing shooters because of cost
Regarding 1), I can give my family example, my sons, having all for free, don't want to shoot because there's no action at all. I have seen a lot of youngsters, sons or shooter friends, not staying for long.
This is the biggest issue... no new or young shooters.
Talking 2), cost, yes it's expensive but again, I don't see top shooters giving up on cost. It touch majority of middle field pack. That's why I introduced the potential cost/reward ratio as something to work on. If I spend x and my reward is w, I'll stay, but spending 2x for the same reward I'll quit. Something like that.
Pete brought another interesting point.
Moving to just one discipline, being unlimited the easiest to fulfil the majority desire.
Maybe I'm wrong again, but I think it's the logistics burden the culprit. It's already hard to bring all bench gear, and on top of it, two or three rifles more... we are not getting any younger, so heavyweight time is gone. And, if I shoot only one rifle, I reduce the ammo cost by 60%, for the same reward.
I love BR, I have a great passion about it. But I struggle to contaminate others...
Longer Range
New member
Good thread and discussion.Thank You all.
Same worry all around world.Also here. RFBR and CFBR shooters middle age is high and lot of head scrathing how to get newbies to benchrest.
I have tried to get older prone RF shooters to try RFBR. Middle age dont go lower but they have knowledge about many basic details how to play with RF.s.Didnt manage.One older free pistol shooter I managed to hook and now he is taking part every RFBR competitions here in our country.
Our CFBR world champions Jari Laulumaa & Jari Raudaskoski has kept one time / year high level CFBR course.Last time there was over 20 people before registered,but only 7 people came to course and mentors were very disappointed.
Few father & son and father & daughter pairs are in our small RFBR community here.Sons & daughters dont have big costs because equipments and also coach are ready in family.
Talked about "godparent" system. If there is not from shooters own family growing up new RFBR shooter, people try to find even 1 "godparent young" where to "make" new RFBR shooter.
Pedro wrote about archery.
I can wrote about fishing (salmon trolling) on competition level.
1995 I was fishing in Canada with few their top guys 15 days and they teached me how to fish salmons with real baits.Anchovies & herrings.
Continue developing this technique here at home and very fast me and my closest friends begun to win salmon competitions here in Finland, Sweden & Denmark.
Suddenly our method was forbidden on trolling competitions.Also in our Nationals.
I thought that if I dont teach everybody to this technique they never change rules to accept it.
I made 2 about 1 hour videos.Part1 and 2 and keep few courses about it. Used 2 under the water cameras and people can see same time what happens under the water and also on the boat.
Now method is not forbidden anymore and it is most favourite technique on salmon trolling here.
RFBR or CFBR are not public events.Can we make something to this? What Pedro told about archery.
Skeet and prone shooting finals on TV are very exciting to look.Also archery finals.
*First demonstration videos from RFBR where on same time people can see hits from scope camera, wind flags positions,hits to sighters and shooters scope pointing against wind.
*Also social life to video around competition trips.Good friends etc.
*Most of videos about BR are not very "sexy". Nice to see how world champion and world record holder handle his equipment in the bench but maybe this only confirm peoples opinion who dont know BR.That it is very easy to put bullets to same holes with thisway benches.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr8wcTdkd78
*And lift up how equality sport RFBR and CFBR are. Not many sport is as equality.
BR, Timo
Ps. And this is "Big Boys" headache. As Pedro wrote small RFBR community worldwide has splitted to small pieces.
Big question but is there way to get more force and find way to go under one "umbrella".
Same worry all around world.Also here. RFBR and CFBR shooters middle age is high and lot of head scrathing how to get newbies to benchrest.
I have tried to get older prone RF shooters to try RFBR. Middle age dont go lower but they have knowledge about many basic details how to play with RF.s.Didnt manage.One older free pistol shooter I managed to hook and now he is taking part every RFBR competitions here in our country.
Our CFBR world champions Jari Laulumaa & Jari Raudaskoski has kept one time / year high level CFBR course.Last time there was over 20 people before registered,but only 7 people came to course and mentors were very disappointed.
Few father & son and father & daughter pairs are in our small RFBR community here.Sons & daughters dont have big costs because equipments and also coach are ready in family.
Talked about "godparent" system. If there is not from shooters own family growing up new RFBR shooter, people try to find even 1 "godparent young" where to "make" new RFBR shooter.
Pedro wrote about archery.
I can wrote about fishing (salmon trolling) on competition level.
1995 I was fishing in Canada with few their top guys 15 days and they teached me how to fish salmons with real baits.Anchovies & herrings.
Continue developing this technique here at home and very fast me and my closest friends begun to win salmon competitions here in Finland, Sweden & Denmark.
Suddenly our method was forbidden on trolling competitions.Also in our Nationals.
I thought that if I dont teach everybody to this technique they never change rules to accept it.
I made 2 about 1 hour videos.Part1 and 2 and keep few courses about it. Used 2 under the water cameras and people can see same time what happens under the water and also on the boat.
Now method is not forbidden anymore and it is most favourite technique on salmon trolling here.
RFBR or CFBR are not public events.Can we make something to this? What Pedro told about archery.
Skeet and prone shooting finals on TV are very exciting to look.Also archery finals.
*First demonstration videos from RFBR where on same time people can see hits from scope camera, wind flags positions,hits to sighters and shooters scope pointing against wind.
*Also social life to video around competition trips.Good friends etc.
*Most of videos about BR are not very "sexy". Nice to see how world champion and world record holder handle his equipment in the bench but maybe this only confirm peoples opinion who dont know BR.That it is very easy to put bullets to same holes with thisway benches.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr8wcTdkd78
*And lift up how equality sport RFBR and CFBR are. Not many sport is as equality.
BR, Timo
Ps. And this is "Big Boys" headache. As Pedro wrote small RFBR community worldwide has splitted to small pieces.
Big question but is there way to get more force and find way to go under one "umbrella".
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Kent Owens
Well-known member
Thanks to all who have contributed to this tread, it's been quite interesting. Initially, I posted the thread to find out if my 10-12 year old equipment would compete in todays game. I guess the jury is still out on that, based on ammo availability. LOL I've always loved shooting of any kind, and loading, and working up loads, as well. I enjoy testing and experimenting. I will say, rimfire BR can be a frustrating game, but lots of enjoyment if you're stubborn enough, and competitive enough to stick with it. And, there a lot of wonderful people in the game, no matter what discipline. I really miss those folks, but health reasons caused me to stop. I still enjoy following what you guys are doing, best of luck to all.
hepburn45110
Member
"Send in the clowns"
Kent Owens
Well-known member
Meaning? Thanks for your participation on the thread, but i don't understand the comment. Could you please elaborate?
PNW Skipper
Member
I bring a somewhat different perspective. I'm 74 years old and restarted smallbore competition 5 years ago when I fully retired after an unexpected open heart surgery. That was after a layoff of about 50 years from smallbore competition. I am located in Eastern WA now and a member of club that has a fairly active smallbore program, shooting outdoors from March - November, typically 6 matches a month (Dewar, USBR, ARA, Vintage Smallbore, Mini Palma, & 100/200 Yard) all unsanctioned.
In addition to the many good points already made, I offer the following considerations:
1. Distance... the nearest sanctioned matches to my location are 3.5 to 4 hrs away and necessitate a 2 nite hotel stay, as well as other travel costs to participate. I am going to propose dropping our unsanctioned ARA match next season & ride/accommodation share to participate in the nearest sanctioned ARA match, but initial reaction has been less than enthusiastic (see previous discussion about fixed incomes).
2. Match length... the norm seems to be 6 cards/day/match. Many of us of a certain age don't have the stamina for that any more. Our club matches are fiercely contested but typically have only 2 cards for 50 yard matches. Related to match length are environmental conditions. We shoot at a notoriously windy venue (Rattlesnake Moutain Shooting Facility) in which one can expect conditions to start out marginal in the morning and worsen as the day progresses (especially our Mini Palma & 100/200 yard matches shot on part of the 1000 yard range).
One suggestion: ARA and IR 50/50 might increase participation if they considered adding a method for "postal" participation that allowed one to shoot on one's home range and spread cards out in time. The current Eley Benchrest Masters Competition could provide a model. Each preliminary match has 6 cards shot over a month. That allows one to look ahead to the weather forecast. One can get up early and shoot a card or two before the wind becomes horrible and stamina flags. The cost to participate in the Eley series is reasonable, and the opportunity to win a prize purse and Eley ammo is attractive.
Several US club shooters and a couple of ARA shooters are participating in the current series and doing reasonably well in an international field. I would love to shoot in the venues that allow multiple 250's, but feel fortunate if I can squeeze out 1 in a month of early morning shooting. The club shooters that I am familiar with are very happy with the format and hoping that Eley continues it going forward.
In addition to the many good points already made, I offer the following considerations:
1. Distance... the nearest sanctioned matches to my location are 3.5 to 4 hrs away and necessitate a 2 nite hotel stay, as well as other travel costs to participate. I am going to propose dropping our unsanctioned ARA match next season & ride/accommodation share to participate in the nearest sanctioned ARA match, but initial reaction has been less than enthusiastic (see previous discussion about fixed incomes).
2. Match length... the norm seems to be 6 cards/day/match. Many of us of a certain age don't have the stamina for that any more. Our club matches are fiercely contested but typically have only 2 cards for 50 yard matches. Related to match length are environmental conditions. We shoot at a notoriously windy venue (Rattlesnake Moutain Shooting Facility) in which one can expect conditions to start out marginal in the morning and worsen as the day progresses (especially our Mini Palma & 100/200 yard matches shot on part of the 1000 yard range).
One suggestion: ARA and IR 50/50 might increase participation if they considered adding a method for "postal" participation that allowed one to shoot on one's home range and spread cards out in time. The current Eley Benchrest Masters Competition could provide a model. Each preliminary match has 6 cards shot over a month. That allows one to look ahead to the weather forecast. One can get up early and shoot a card or two before the wind becomes horrible and stamina flags. The cost to participate in the Eley series is reasonable, and the opportunity to win a prize purse and Eley ammo is attractive.
Several US club shooters and a couple of ARA shooters are participating in the current series and doing reasonably well in an international field. I would love to shoot in the venues that allow multiple 250's, but feel fortunate if I can squeeze out 1 in a month of early morning shooting. The club shooters that I am familiar with are very happy with the format and hoping that Eley continues it going forward.
Kent Owens
Well-known member
I'd like to thank everyone for their comments. While I didn't say it, I was basically wondering about the newer equipment, i.e. rifles/barrels/scopes/etc.. But there have been many nice comments. I guess one thing that hasn't changed is wondering how to get more people involved in the sport, and I don't have any answers. When I ran IR5050 matches, I gave away free food, and on occasion loaned rifles/rests, and ammo to new shooters who were interested, again free! I don't recall a single one that took up the game. Finally, I came to the conclusion, that rimfire BR just is NOT for everyone. I ran matches for 10 years from 2002-2012, and in 2010 average match participation was 22 shooters per match in IR5050 3 gun competition. In 2012 I average 12 shooters per match, and it looked to be going down hill from there. I made no money from matches, all money went to the range to help keep up the road into it, and mow the grass. I actually lost, and worked for free, and it's hard work! When I decided to quit, nobody else wanted the job, so matches ceased to exist. Only job I ever had that someone wasn't trying to stab me in the back, and take it over. LOL
john prince
Member
Every match I shoot I make it a point to thank the match director, without them it all stops happening.