Case forming question

antelopedundee

antelopedundee

internet bum
The reason I posted the other thread about lock rings was because I wanted to change my die setting to try some case forming. I was trying to see if I could move the shoulder of a .280AI case down far enough to chamber in a 6.5-06AI. Well that doesn't work. Anyone know why?

An acquaintance tried the same thing with RCBS dies. He had no luck. I told him to send me a couple cases and I would try it in my Redding dies. No luck there either. A CS gent from Redding pretty much said good luck with something that won't work. So why does the 6.5-06AI die set the shoulder back by about half of what it needs?

The reason for using .280AI dies was to end up with cases that can be trimmed to the 2.494 standard .06 case length. Using .25-06 or trimmed .270 Win cases gives a final case that is at least 0.010 too short.
 
-06 wildcats

Antelpedundee -

Howdy !


Right off the bat, I'm going to speculate that you can't do an easy shoulder shove downward on a case "mechanically "; when using dies w/ a 40* shoulder angle.
That's too " sharp " of angle for brass to extrude around / through readily.

And.... I didn't quite get the relevance of the .30-06 2.494" case length ?
Just working' off chamber reamer spec's quoted by one rent-a-reamer site..... the " SAAMI " .280AI was listed at a ( case ) length of 2.1056" .
And for the " traditional " .280AI, a ( case ) length of 2.0945". The same website listed ( case ) length for a 6.5-06AI as 2.0762".
I don't see how a trim die set for something like 2.494" case oal would help with the shorter case lengths listed for either .280 AI; or a 6.5 X 06AI ??

But hey.... that's just me.



With regards,
.357Mag
 
.357Mag said:
Antelpedundee -

Howdy !


Right off the bat, I'm going to speculate that you can't do an easy shoulder shove downward on a case "mechanically "; when using dies w/ a 40* shoulder angle.
That's too " sharp " of angle for brass to extrude around / through readily.

And.... I didn't quite get the relevance of the .30-06 2.494" case length ?
Just working' off chamber reamer spec's quoted by one rent-a-reamer site..... the " SAAMI " .280AI was listed at a ( case ) length of 2.1056" .
And for the " traditional " .280AI, a ( case ) length of 2.0945". The same website listed ( case ) length for a 6.5-06AI as 2.0762".
I don't see how a trim die set for something like 2.494" case oal would help with the shorter case lengths listed for either .280 AI; or a 6.5 X 06AI ??

But hey.... that's just me.



With regards,
.357Mag
Click to expand...

Thanks for replying. I asked Redding if a 6.5-06AI full length sizing die should push the shoulder of a 280AI commercial case back far enough [at least 0.046] to chamber in a 6.5-06AI chamber.
Their answer was "Converting 280 AI to 6.5-06 AI is not going to work well as you have found out." but they gave no explanation for why it won't work so thanks for your insight.

Regarding case length, the 30-06 and all of its offspring like the .25-06 have a standard case length of 2.494 inches. I am assuming and maybe wrongly so that the .25-06AI, the 6.5-06AI and the 8mm-06AI should all have the same 2.494 case length. I haven't been able to find any SAAMI cartridge drawings to support this. I do know that if you fire form a .25-06 case into a 6.5-06AI case that the new case will shorten by 0.012-0.015 inches. Since AI cases don't grow or if they do it's a pretty small amount, you will likely wear a case out before it gets to 2.494. OTOH SAAMI shows that the standard .280AI case is 0.015 shorter than .280 Remington. For myself the small difference doesn't bother me so it may not be worth the effort to get to a 2.494 inch 6.5-06AU case. I better find out what the real dimension would be first. The best way to achieve a 2.494 6.5-06AI case would be from a .270 WinAI. You'd just need to trim it. One could also neck a .270 Win case down to where it will fit into a 6.5-06AI and fire form using the half case of fast pistol powder method.
 
-06 wildccats

Antelopedude -

Howdy !

I noted the rent-a-reamer website said there was a 6.5 -06AI, and a 6.5 X .280AI. I DK whether that helps you in any way ?



Regards,
357Mag
 
Will say the same.

Pushing an AI shoulder is hard. Even if one "just" want to shoulder bump for headspace.

I still have somewhere a Neil Jones arbor press die, neck sizing + shoulder bump, designed for a 250AI.

As some Gentlemen would say here, it'll never work, and, effectively, had never work, even using a very very strong home made arbor press (I am the bad, she's the ugly :p).


I still wonder why you are in this business of reforming one AI to another AI, intellectual game or lazzyness put apart.

True AIs were designed to maintain the ability to shot the non AI "parent" brass, aka 250 Savage in the 250AI.

It seems easier to start with 30-06 cases, form to 6.5-06 (shoulder angle = brass flow ok), carefully watch/seek for the "go" headspace in that particular gun, the the longest neck possible, and fireform in the AI chamber with a very jammed bullet and the relevant load considering jammed bullet.

I once converted many 308 Win to 250 AI using such a process.


About AI being shorter than parent case, remember History. What made the initial success and efficiency of AI was that the old parent cases all have a strong body taper and lonnnnnngggggg shoulder/neck.

So when fireformed in the rightly cut AI-ed chamber, the parent case NEEDS to catch some brass somewhere to expand to that flat shoulder. It SHALL come from the parent case shoulder and neck. So the AI forming makes the AI final case somewhat shorter than the parent case.

Should the brass do not shorten at FF, one is most probably catching / pumping material from the body, and will end with a ring somewhere along the case body because the body was stretched during the FF.

AI also require some attention about the carbon ring growing forward the case neck in the chamber, as the case neck length was "fit" before FF and too short after FF. Same goes with lot of 38Sp shot in 357Mag cylinders.

Good forming !!
Olive.
 
OliveOil said:
Will say the same.

Pushing an AI shoulder is hard. Even if one "just" want to shoulder bump for headspace.

I still have somewhere a Neil Jones arbor press die, neck sizing + shoulder bump, designed for a 250AI.

As some Gentlemen would say here, it'll never work, and, effectively, had never work, even using a very very strong home made arbor press (I am the bad, she's the ugly :p).


I still wonder why you are in this business of reforming one AI to another AI, intellectual game or lazzyness put apart.

True AIs were designed to maintain the ability to shot the non AI "parent" brass, aka 250 Savage in the 250AI.

It seems easier to start with 30-06 cases, form to 6.5-06 (shoulder angle = brass flow ok), carefully watch/seek for the "go" headspace in that particular gun, the the longest neck possible, and fireform in the AI chamber with a very jammed bullet and the relevant load considering jammed bullet.

I once converted many 308 Win to 250 AI using such a process.


About AI being shorter than parent case, remember History. What made the initial success and efficiency of AI was that the old parent cases all have a strong body taper and lonnnnnngggggg shoulder/neck.

So when fireformed in the rightly cut AI-ed chamber, the parent case NEEDS to catch some brass somewhere to expand to that flat shoulder. It SHALL come from the parent case shoulder and neck. So the AI forming makes the AI final case somewhat shorter than the parent case.

Should the brass do not shorten at FF, one is most probably catching / pumping material from the body, and will end with a ring somewhere along the case body because the body was stretched during the FF.

AI also require some attention about the carbon ring growing forward the case neck in the chamber, as the case neck length was "fit" before FF and too short after FF. Same goes with lot of 38Sp shot in 357Mag cylinders.

Good forming !!
Olive.
Click to expand...

As I indicated the acquaintance sorta wanted final cases that could be the standard 2.494 .06 case length [not the shortened version] so starting with 280AI seemed to be the obvious way to get them, but alas this was not to be the case PUN intended. If the standard SAAMI for the .06AI cases is not 2.494 but something shorter then it will have been wasted effort. Roberson Cartridge Company if they're still in business offers them I believe or used to. Starting with .30-06 cases is a PITA. If you can get them Quality Cartridge 6.5-06 cases are the way to go. Just prime, charge, seat a bullet and have at it.

The possibility of forming a carbon ring is one reason to avoid the shorter necks on the AI cases. Some say the shorter cases don't much matter. I've fire formed many 6.5-06AI cases over the years and never really much paid attention to carbon rings. Wasn't even aware of them 25-30 years ago.

Still then how does one go about getting .06AI cases of 2.494 length? If one starts with the 270 WinAI that would be the best. Size down for 6.6-06AL and .25-06AI and size for 7mm-06 and beyond. I've thought about going to the farm store down the road and buying a cheap savage 270, getting 500 Peterson cases 500 cheap Remington Core Lokt bullets and going to town. My hearing is on life support so I expect that 500 abusive booms isn't such a good idea.
 
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-06 wildcats

OliveOil said:
Will say the same.

Pushing an AI shoulder is hard. Even if one "just" want to shoulder bump for headspace.

I still have somewhere a Neil Jones arbor press die, neck sizing + shoulder bump, designed for a 250AI.

As some Gentlemen would say here, it'll never work, and, effectively, had never work, even using a very very strong home made arbor press (I am the bad, she's the ugly :p).


I still wonder why you are in this business of reforming one AI to another AI, intellectual game or lazzyness put apart.

True AIs were designed to maintain the ability to shot the non AI "parent" brass, aka 250 Savage in the 250AI.

It seems easier to start with 30-06 cases, form to 6.5-06 (shoulder angle = brass flow ok), carefully watch/seek for the "go" headspace in that particular gun, the the longest neck possible, and fireform in the AI chamber with a very jammed bullet and the relevant load considering jammed bullet.

I once converted many 308 Win to 250 AI using such a process.


About AI being shorter than parent case, remember History. What made the initial success and efficiency of AI was that the old parent cases all have a strong body taper and lonnnnnngggggg shoulder/neck.

So when fireformed in the rightly cut AI-ed chamber, the parent case NEEDS to catch some brass somewhere to expand to that flat shoulder. It SHALL come from the parent case shoulder and neck. So the AI forming makes the AI final case somewhat shorter than the parent case.

Should the brass do not shorten at FF, one is most probably catching / pumping material from the body, and will end with a ring somewhere along the case body because the body was stretched during the FF.

AI also require some attention about the carbon ring growing forward the case neck in the chamber, as the case neck length was "fit" before FF and too short after FF. Same goes with lot of 38Sp shot in 357Mag cylinders.

Good forming !!
Olive.
Click to expand...

Antelopedude & Oliveoil -

Howdy !

Oliveoil told you square. Very, very well stated.... and throghtfully presented facts.


With regards,
357Mag
 
40 degree shoulders are all but impossible to move to any significant degree.
It took a charge of powder to create them.You will never deliver that much force to even nudge them back.
OliveOil gave a nice detailed explanation.
 
brickeyee said:
40 degree shoulders are all but impossible to move to any significant degree.
It took a charge of powder to create them.You will never deliver that much force to even nudge them back.
OliveOil gave a nice detailed explanation.
Click to expand...

This is the case after running it through my FL die. Didn't require much effort and there doesn't seem to be any deformation of the case. What causes the little bit of flare at the case mouth? Would it be possible to trim say .020 off of the die bottom and move it down more? Or would the case finally crumple?

If the case enters the die fully and there's no deformation of the case then where does the excess "pressure" go to? The shoulder moved down about 40% of what was needed.

4Mq552n.jpg
 
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brickeyee said:
Looks like you hit the decapping stem.
screw it out further, or remove it entirely.
Click to expand...

I hid all of my decapping stems in a spot where I can't find them a long time ago. I can't swerar that the bottom of the die contacted the shellholder because I didn't bother to look. Just went by the feel from full length sizing cases in the past. Must be a crapload of springback.
 
Any unexpectedly strong effort with brutal release when the 280AI case neck just enters the 6.5AI tool shoulder-neck base area ?
 
I shot a 6.5/06AI in long range for a while, and I used 30/06 brass. Necked them down then ran them in the 6.5/06AI sizer until I had a snug bolt close. Then fire formed.
 
Wayne Shaw said:
I shot a 6.5/06AI in long range for a while, and I used 30/06 brass. Necked them down then ran them in the 6.5/06AI sizer until I had a snug bolt close. Then fire formed.
Click to expand...

Did you go direct from .30 down to 6.5 or go to .28 or .27 first? Many moons ago When I tried to neck a .284 Win down to .25 the case mouths were noticeably flared so I ran then through a 6.5-.284 trim die first.
 
antelopedundee said:
I hid all of my decapping stems in a spot where I can't find them a long time ago. I can't swerar that the bottom of the die contacted the shellholder because I didn't bother to look. Just went by the feel from full length sizing cases in the past. Must be a crapload of springback.
Click to expand...

I put parts for a die in the box with the die.
Keeps everything together.
 
Another option would be to trim a 270 case to 2.510 and use the fast pistol powder method. Run the case into a 270 seating die and put as much crimp on the case mouth as you can Hopefully it should chamber without bumping into anything. plug the mouth with a smidgen of buttwipe, point R straight up and have at it.
 
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