Bullet Seating

EKB
Ignore Francis B's insensitive and uninformative comments! He is quick to point out that other peoples posts don't influence people or win any friends, I think he is a bit hypocritical. With that said I have been toting around one of those Nut Style from Sinclair, Bullet comparators for years that I don't use, I switched to the Hornady one that attaches to the Venier Caliper and thats how I measure my seating depth off the ogive like others here have suggested. The spare one I have is the Nut style with 6 different calibers. If you would like to have it I will send it to you if you PM me with your address. That way you can start to measure off the ogive. Good luck in your quest to get the best accuracy from whatever rifle your sho:rolleyes:oting.
 
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Steelhead1 said:
EKB
Ignore Francis B's insensitive and uninformative comments! He is quick to point out that other peoples posts don't influence people or win any friends, I think he is a bit hypocritical. With that said I have been toting around one of those Nut Style from Sinclair, Bullet comparators for years that I don't use, I switched to the Hornady one that attaches to the Venier Caliper and thats how I measure my seating depth off the ogive like others here have suggested. The spare one I have is the Nut style with 6 different calibers. If you would like to have it I will send it to you if you PM me with your address. That way you can start to measure off the ogive. Good luck in your quest to get the best accuracy from whatever rifle your sho:rolleyes:oting.
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R

ThankYou for your kind offer. PM sent. I shoot Cooper Mod 21 in 223, Rem 700 VLS in 308, Flaigs custom FN in 6mm Rem, Flaigs custom 98 in 30-06, McGowen custom in 7x57 and WA Sukalle custom 98 in .270 WCF
 
Centerfire said:
Might you share what cartridge you are loading for?

I like most of the 6PPC shooters use a clean brush to clean the ID neck area after shooting.
A few years ago there was a very interesting article in Precision Shooting about consistency of pull of a bullet from the case. The author used naked cases and put graphite into the neck after cleaning the necks with the brush to gain consistent bullet release. Or you could use a coated bullet (moly, Dan Zak) and not use the graphite.
Centerfire
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I shoot many but for paper punching I have been shooting 308 Win and I am starting with 223 Rem.(although components are hard to find at the moment) My 7x57 seems to be very accurate as well (built by Harry McGowen)
 
EKP,
Got your PM will put the comparator in the mail to you tomorrw. Also answerd your pm but not sure it went out. Your welcome and those are some nice rifles.
 
ekp: Instead of checking the o.a.l of your loaded rounds, check the case head-to-ogive dimension. Often, the distance ahead of the ogive will vary while the case head-to-ogive figure will be consistent. That figure is where we look for consistency when loading for accuracy.

At first, this can be a bit hard to visualize even for veteran reloaders like yourself. If you'd like, I can post some pics that may be helpful.

Hope this helps. -Al

ekp, Al and some of the above are on target. I measure my target loads from the case head to the ogive that matches or nearly matches the inter diameter of the barrel. For example I measure my .224 bullets at an ogive of 0.219 using a Redding or Wilson type bushing.

Over the years I, and my shooting buddies, have found that the ogives on even the best match grade bullets vary somewhat from bullet to bullet. The second problem is the seater pin in almost all of the seating dies we use, Wilson, Redding, and others, catch or press the bullet at a smaller diameter than the ogive diameter that matches the barrel. This can, and does, cause the seating depth as seen by the barrel to vary somewhat. And the variation is sufficient to show up on the target Point of Aim at 100 yards if your rifle, load and tune is precision.

Octopus
 
Octopus said:
ekp: Instead of checking the o.a.l of your loaded rounds, check the case head-to-ogive dimension. Often, the distance ahead of the ogive will vary while the case head-to-ogive figure will be consistent. That figure is where we look for consistency when loading for accuracy.

At first, this can be a bit hard to visualize even for veteran reloaders like yourself. If you'd like, I can post some pics that may be helpful.

Hope this helps. -Al

ekp, Al and some of the above are on target. I measure my target loads from the case head to the ogive that matches or nearly matches the inter diameter of the barrel. For example I measure my .224 bullets at an ogive of 0.219 using a Redding or Wilson type bushing.

Over the years I, and my shooting buddies, have found that the ogives on even the best match grade bullets vary somewhat from bullet to bullet. The second problem is the seater pin in almost all of the seating dies we use, Wilson, Redding, and others, catch or press the bullet at a smaller diameter than the ogive diameter that matches the barrel. This can, and does, cause the seating depth as seen by the barrel to vary somewhat. And the variation is sufficient to show up on the target Point of Aim at 100 yards if your rifle, load and tune is precision.

Octopus
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I have always lived by the opinion "It is not as important to know all the answers as it is to know who to ask"
Thank you to all that have helped
 
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ekp
I mailed your comparator earlier today, you should see it by weeks end. Good luck and if you have any other questions just send me a pm.

Gary
 
We have had quite a discussion on this subject, but I ask you to consider what is most important here. I will answer the question first, then tell you why.

The distance from the shoulder to the ogive of the bullet where it will touch the lands is the correct answer.

What happens when the firing pin first hits the primer? The whole round is pushed forward so that the shoulder makes contact, no matter what the length of the sized brass. If the brass is long and the bolt closes hard, the shoulder is making contact. If the brass is short, the shoulder will make contact when the round is pushed forward by the firing pin hitting the primer.

The important thing to remember about match bullets is they have all been made on the same die, therefore the shape of the ogive is the same on every one of them. It does not matter if the distance from the base to the ogive is slightly different from one bullet to the next, because the shape of the ogive is the same on every one of them. Therefore, the seater stem will always have the same relationship when seating the bullet.

The secret to getting the same distance from the shoulder to the ogive is to modify your seating die so that the shoulder always makes contact while the bullet is being seated. To do this, simply shorten the seating die so that the cartridge case hangs out of the base of the seating die every time a bullet is seated. Doing this assures that shoulder contact is always taking place as the bullet is seated.

Now you can adjust your seating stem to adjust for seating depth and know that the seating depth is the same no matter how bad the brass is.

You will still have to deal with other variables like; brass length which effects the pressure put on the bolt, which will cause verticle, neck tension which can be sorted as you seat your bullets, primer seating pressure, other ignition quality issues, powder volume variations, how much donut exists at the neck and shoulder junction, neck length and squareness, etc.

I hope this is helpful. Please read this over carefully as many times as it takes to understand it before being critical.

I shouldn't be giving away my secrets like this, but maybe someone will reciprocate by helping me learn how to read wind flags.

Respectfully submitted,
Larry Feusse
 
Wow that is a lot to digest. I reread your post and now from what I understand, correct me if I am wrong, you suggest that I have my Wilson die turned down in length to insure good contact with the shoulder of the shell? Should I be concerned about not being able to chamber the shell in the die?

THnks
 
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Think about it this way. As long as you are doing your measuring and load your first round with the same bullet, there will be no problem with bullet to bullet inconsistency of measurement off of the tip. (because you will be using the same bullet for everything) Once you have that first round loaded, and know where the bullet is, relative to jam or touch, then you can measure it with a caliper attachment that makes contact on the bullet's ogive and record the ogive to case head measurement, including a note about where the bullet is seated in relation to the lands, at that measurement. From that point on, you will be using the attachment, and measuring off of the ogive.
 
Assuming good bullets and the seater stem contacting only the ogive...just set the stem where your rifle shoots best. When you have a bad day and start changing stuff, measure the seater stem with a caliper so you'll know where it was in the likely event it needs to be returned to where it was.

Don't drive yourself nuts with a caliper........
 
ekp,

Yes, you are correct in assuming that the rim of the case will not go all the way into the seating die. I like to trim mine so that the case is outside the bottom of the die about .005 in.

Wilber is also correct in his advise, don't worry about any measurement except the length of the seater stem and cap assembly. Measuring the stem this way you can be sure of any amount that you want to move your seating depth either away from jam, or more into the jam. Jam is the point at which the bullet is hitting the rifling as hard as it can without pushing the bullet backward into the case. A dummy round can be used to check this by using a caliper to measure overall length of the dummy round with the bullet inserted. You will have to move the bullet in and out in order to find the exact jam point, then, like Wilbur said, record the seater length, which is the only measurement that you will need for further reference. I like to keep track of the seater stem length, and thus the seating depth, as I move around checking various seating depth settings.

The overall length of the loaded round, as others may have mentioned, is of no importance any more, because the only real measurement that you should care about is the distance from the shoulder to the jam point, which cannot really be measured anyway. That is why we measure the seater stem length, because it gives us a substitute measurement that is the most meaningful.

Good luck,
Larry
 
Measuring the seater stem works with a Wilson seater that does not have either an aftermarket micrometer cap. or is not one with the micrometer on the body, from Wilson. For the plain Wilson seater, and my Neilson seater it works, and that is what I do.
 
Old habits...

The very most stupid thing I can remember I did was measuring the seater stem on my new Carstensen seater. I wrote it down and proceded to adjust the body several times in the same direction. My groups didn't get better so when I tried to return to the initial setting I measured the seater stem. Sad thing is, it took me several (way too many) seconds to realize what I had done. When I compared the measurement to what I had written down I just sat there and blinked until the load of bricks hit me.
 
Holey Cow

you are getting some seriously fine advice here! The sort of thing you can only get whilst setting around a hotpot after the match.

Or here, on Wilbur's Forum.
 
ekp, Here's another little tip on the standard Wilson seater:

Each full revolution changes the seating depth by .040. A half turn gives you .020, a quarter turn gives you .010, etc. Once you do this a few times, you'll be surprised at how close you are when you check it with the calipers...usually within .001-.002.

Good shootin'. -Al
 
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More good advice, and it's easy. You don't need a micrometer top seating die to make precise adjustments. I've used a file to mark lines on the top of a couple of my Wilson seaters.... don't need 'em :) I don't find the marks to be any more accurate than eyeballing,

Slight correction, I believe the thread to be 25 t.p.i. but maybe a math person can correct me.
 
I just measured a Wilson seating stem as a 3/8-24 thread. That would mean 24 TPI, (threads per inch). It would take 24 rotations for the thread to travel one inch. 1" divided by 24 equals .0416. Al's practical use is correct, just the TPI number being wrong.
 
LARRY FEUSSE said:
ekp,
8b
Yes, you are correct in assuming that the rim of the case will not go all the way into the seating die. I like to trim mine so that the case is outside the bottom of the die about .005 in.

Wilber is also correct in his advise, don't worry about any measurement except the length of the seater stem and cap assembly. Measuring the stem this way you can be sure of any amount that you want to move your seating depth either away from jam, or more into the jam. Jam is the point at which the bullet is hitting the rifling as hard as it can without pushing the bullet backward into the case. A dummy round can be used to check this by using a caliper to measure overall length of the dummy round with the bullet inserted. You will have to move the bullet in and out in order to find the exact jam point, then, like Wilbur said, record the seater length, which is the only measurement that you will need for further reference. I like to keep track of the seater stem length, and thus the seating depth, as I move around checking various seating depth settings.

The overall length of the loaded round, as others may have mentioned, is of no importance any more, because the only real measurement that you should care about is the distance from the shoulder to the jam point, which cannot really be measured anyway. That is why we measure the seater stem length, because it gives us a substitute measurement that is the most meaningful.

Good luck,
Larry
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I must be a little slow but how do you determine the jam without pushing the bullet back in the case. I ordinarly start a bullet in the case and then chamber the round. Is that not the way to make the dummy round?
 
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