Bullet Seaters

Centerfire.....you shuld worry about what the wind is doing and not try to improve Wilson dies......Roger
 
Run out

Charles E said:
We need to take German's article as data, not proof. Creighton Audette wrote an article in Precision Shooting back in the 1990s where he physically pushed 20 bullets off center, and had another batch where they were close to perfect. He then fired two 20-shot groups at 200 yards, prone. The groups were essentially the same size. He concluded that bullet concentricity (case was not checked) did not matter.
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I'm not familair with the Creighton Audette article. Did he index the the rounds that were off center? I've indexed rounds in the past and shot them at different clock positions and the groups were similar, but the point of impact moved.

I had posted a question earlier in the thread and then deleted it after no answered me. I think I got my answer from German's article. I wanted to know if Wilson dies were really better than Redding or was it because of the portability of an arbor press. I will conclude the latter. - nhk
 
Gentlemen, Since 2008 when I bought Lester's checker at the Super Shoot I have been checking the run out on every cartridge. Never 2 the same. I can contact Jim at Kelbly's and get a bullet seater made using their reamer the same as the barrels he has made for me. I would think I would not have .013" clearance under the case head from him. Or I might ask Pumpkin for one of his units. Or I could buy a reamer from Kelbly' and get a Newlon seater and have my buddy make one for me and I know it would not have .013" under the case head.
Now I understand this will not make me a better shooter or wind reader BUT wouldn't it be better to have a seating die without the extra space? And I am asking this question as I have 4 more Wilson seaters in other calibers for which I will use the learned information from this learned group if someone will just tell me if I am going the right direction.
Many thanks to all who have presented the information.
Centerfire
 
Dear Centerfire.....that .013" that you mention doesnt give you .013 clearance...the case tapers very little....I havnt done the math but prolly a half a thou or less on the sides....you need room for dirt/dust/pocket fuzz....I usually put a lil shim uner mine to gain clearance (longitudal like you have)....and keep em from getting air locked ....you are worried about a non problem....Roger
 
Roger, I think I am not explaining myself very well. The .013" space is between the bottom of the case and the safety plate. So if I used a .013 shim I would then be able to seat the case shoulder to the die shoulder and I think achieve a self centering of the case mouth for bullet seating. I do not have a side of the case problem. I think????
Hang with me on this...
Centerfire
 
Hi Centerfire....cut a lil' circular shim (with a hole in the middle...sorta like a donut)....outa a pocket "Bank Calendar" that you get at the bank for freee....it is .010" thick.....give it a try ....let us know what you find....some people drop the floor(machine some metal out) of the base plate a few thou. as necessary....Roger
 
Apollo said:
Last year, I got an idear and took my seating stem out from my Wilson seater and placed it in my mini-lathe. I then put some aggressive lapping compound on the bullet I use in that die. After going through 10 bullets - I "smoked" a clean bullet and inserted it into the clean stem. The surface contact between the stem/bullet was about 3 times that of before. Stanley
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Whoa, Jason! :eek: You scared me a bit, man!

For a minute there, I thought you were going to talk about putting Scotch tape around your necks to isolate runout......;) -Al
 
;) "But, You said!!"

I am a faithful believer in your dirt-clod engineering techniques Al. Yes, your scotch tape method does work to help deduce the runout culprit. However, I have not grown big enough kahunas to take my resizing die and run a dremel tool in it to widen it out big enough for a bushing to fit. :eek:

You South Dakotans....
 
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German Salazar said:
Charles, I agree 100% with your post. Once we're dealing with the level of quality of today's components and tools, and assuming neck turned brass, concentricity is a non-issue, at least for my purposes (Highpower and F-Class). I wrote that article to explore a method of checking dies, not to establish one or the other as "better".

Pete, you certainly have that right, as long as dies push the bullet from somewhare other than the point of contact with the rifling, we are subject to variance based on bullet manufacturing quality. I wrote a short piece about that here: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/09/reloading-measuring-bullets.html
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German,

I have been measuring all of my bullets for several years now using a Tubb Comparitor setup. I do it to assist me in keeping my AOL's consistent as I load. I shoot Point Blank Score and find that a variation of .003 will open my groupd from a group in the .1's to groups in the ,3's and ,4's. It is difficult enough to fight the conditions without fighting myself with ammo that isn't consistent. A lot of people think I am silly, I know, but I am not the best shoter in the world so I try to do everything I can do to help myself. A seating stem or die with a bushing that contacts the bullet close to where the bullet will engage the rifiling will assure that all the OAL's are alike. Seating Stems need to have a significently larger I.D. that those currently being sold to achieve what I seek to do. I have tried a .338 stem for my 30Cal bullets and it could work if the stem had more depth and a steeper ( I think, like 60*) angle inside. I don't have the abiltiy or machines precise enough to make some or I would. I blieve scores would consistently rise if everyone paid more attention to their OAL's
 
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Apollo said:
;) "But, You said!!"

I am a faithful believer in your dirt-clod engineering techniques Al. Yes, your scotch tape method does work to help deduce the runout culprit. However, I have not grown big enough kahunas to take my resizing die and run a dremel tool in it to widen it out big enough for a bushing to fit. :eek:

You South Dakotans....
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Well your close, I had to open up a 6mmBrx Fl sizer die a little so the necks of my 30 Brx would pass thru the die and contact the neck bushing... works great. I'm a semi skilled dirt clod engineer :eek::p
 
Well the planets all aligned and I finally was able to take my seating die to my tool and die maker. After a discussion of what I was trying to accomplish it was decided that removal of .015" overage from the base would give me .001" to .002" cartridge head extension from the seating die and allow me to apply downward pressure on the case shoulder as I am seating my bullets.
This machining seems to have cured my problem of .002"-.003" run out I was experiencing.
I loaded some Berger 65 FB and some Berger 65gr BT bullets and commenced to check the run out. The worst runout was +- .0005" as checked on my Bruno concentricity checker. Some were +- .0002" and the majority was in the +- .0003".
I am waiting for some cerrosafe now to cast the seater so I may record the internal dimensions for future.
Thanks again to all the posters for all the insight into this bullet seating situation.
Centerfire
 
Hey Charles, so do you think that when using an arbor press that a 6BR seater would work nicely for a 6Dasher case? A 30BR for a 30Dasher? When seating off the case shoulder instead of the die, can an arbor press apply so much pressure that one can deform the case? I presently like to seat to stop using the die not case shoulder, turn 180, and seat hard again. How positive of a stop does the shoulder provide when seating off of it?
 
For what it is worth, I have found that most runnout in the finished round is a result of the sizing operation, not the seater.

If you have a case that comes out of the sizer with a neck that is not truely straight, the seater will not straighten things up..........jackie
 
Yea verily. A seater can make things worse, but it cannot compensated for a bad sizer. Fix the sizer first, then worry about the seater. Once I did a test comparing an inexpensive threaded seater, with a good fitting arbor press die, using brass that had the same runout. The ammunition from the arbor press die had half the runout. One of the better things that I have done for improved sizing, is a carbide bushing. They are straighter.
 
Here' one from the other column, Boyd. Of course, as always, German is very careful not to make strong claims beyond his equipment...

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/reloading-seating-die-runout.html

But I will say that a seater can introduce runout. Maybe less with perfectly clean cases etc. etc., but it never hurts with the Wilson seater to have the shoulder help center up the case.

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For Tricrown: -- I hve no idea. Just how crazy do you think I am, anyway? I've got enough trouble just testing what I already have... :eek:
 
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the balance

:confused i believe seating depth trumps a little run out as we have to trade of on things i would suggest a micrometer seater .i use a wilson and like it lots.
Ive never even measured my run out as i generaly seat jammed or past the jam i believe the lands can straighten up any slight discrepancies?
i do measure total neck diameter after seating and check for roundness of the neck and sort according to the diameters but dont even think neck tension is as critical as we would think as long as it is close.
ok light this fire .jim
 
To get the shoulders of a case within a half thou. or less (pretty much touching but not compressed) of snuggling squarely up into the shoulder angle of a seating die would seem difficult at best.... sorta like seating bullets 'just touching the lands .ooo5" in" which is no easy task.

Even measuring aol length of cases from base to shoulder on a comparator often shows a small but measurable variation so it seems like what your saying is that for best seating concentricity the arbor press would actually have to slightly compress some cases for the brass shoulders to make full contact when trying to index off the shoulder?

It sure sounds good but is it really repeatable with the way brass can be with minor changes in springback from one firing to the next?
 
Charles E said:
But I will say that a seater can introduce runout. Maybe less with perfectly clean cases etc. etc., but it never hurts with the Wilson seater to have the shoulder help center up the case.

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Adding to what Charles wrote, take for example the Wilson 6PPC seater, if you are shooting a 262 neck chamber and 260 brass, there is 0.013" clearance in the neck portion of the seater between the brass neck and seater body. Add to that, for shooters who uses VV133 that requires a lot of neck tension and you can see where the cartridge case shoulder can tilt in that 0.013" space and cause runout...big time.
 
One little thing to contemplate....things that get lost in the noise of sling shooting may stand out in sharp relief with a well made bench rifle. I truly admire position shooters' skill. It is way beyond most of us, but the good groups from that sport are much larger than those in benchrest. I have found that in short range benchrest, with a typical .262 chambered 6PPC that rounds that have their bullets seated well into the lands tend to be limited in their runout, and can be straightened by chambering. I have done the test. Also, I have seen multiple reports that in short range benchrest, that when runout exceeds .002 that it may show up on the target. I have not done the test, but it would seem to me that the self straightening that I observed with rounds loaded so that their bullets seated into the lands, would not take place if bullets were seated off the lands, as many do. I think comparing apples to apples is important.
 
Boyd, see James Mock's interview with Lou Murdica, Precision Shooting, 56:8, pg 16.

Mr. Murdica states that he (a) does not jump bullets (i.e., they have some jam), and (b) has proven in the tunnel that crooked rounds will not agg as good as straight ones.

If, as you suggest, chambering a round so that it is jammed straightens it, how could he have done the test? Or are you suggestung a "placebo effect"?
 
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