D
DJ300Ack
Guest
I would like some input on bullet pointing dies. I have been looking at whidden and hoover pionting die. Would like to hear opinions on which does the best job.
quartersnatcher
Member
I have the Whidden die works very well, one of my friends has it now using it . John makes differnet inserts for different types of bullets. I also have one made by Ferris Pendell but you have to be very careful during set up, Pendell / Beal were the inventers of this patented pointing system which Whidden has permission to use.
Joel Kendrick
Joel Kendrick
O
oneflyer
Guest
Pointing dies
I have the Whidden die with several caliber inserts. I find it easy to use and effective. I have not used or seen the Hoover die- I believe they are a bit more expensive and do the same job as the Whidden die.
I have the Whidden die with several caliber inserts. I find it easy to use and effective. I have not used or seen the Hoover die- I believe they are a bit more expensive and do the same job as the Whidden die.
D
David Wheeler
Guest
All this meplat closing die stuff makes me smileone moment and puke
Jim Hardy )chill(
OK Jim, I'll bite...What is the real story?
V
voldoc02
Guest
I'd like to know also why you smile
then PUKE???=
a bad comment w/o follow up=
enlighten please as I'm considering buying
a Whidden=
thanks from inquiring minds
Doc Stone
then PUKE???=
a bad comment w/o follow up=
enlighten please as I'm considering buying
a Whidden=
thanks from inquiring minds
Doc Stone
quartersnatcher
Member
Doc,
Whidden is a very good point die system I reccomend it. Tell John what type or brand of bullet you are pointing and he will select the correct insert for you.
Joel Kendrick
Whidden is a very good point die system I reccomend it. Tell John what type or brand of bullet you are pointing and he will select the correct insert for you.
Joel Kendrick
V
vinny
Guest
All this meplat closing die stuff makes me smile
Jim Hardy )chill(
I'd be interested in reading about the "real story".
D
dasher john
Guest
Hoover
I purchased the Hoover pointing die and meplat trimmer last year and will be using it this season so I can't yet comment about the effects it has on paper. I can say that the quality and craftmenship is excellent on the Hoover products. The customer support is top notch also.
John
I purchased the Hoover pointing die and meplat trimmer last year and will be using it this season so I can't yet comment about the effects it has on paper. I can say that the quality and craftmenship is excellent on the Hoover products. The customer support is top notch also.
John
slw
Look me up at the range, And we'll point some of your bullets, then you do the shooting. That way nobody can say I fixed the results. showed Phil Bower He said he wouldn't believe it if he wasn't the one shooting.
Plan on shooting a little more this year, and doing a lot more testing. The wife is taking the year off. She feels bad about spanking us so bad.
Joe Salt
Look me up at the range, And we'll point some of your bullets, then you do the shooting. That way nobody can say I fixed the results. showed Phil Bower He said he wouldn't believe it if he wasn't the one shooting.
Plan on shooting a little more this year, and doing a lot more testing. The wife is taking the year off. She feels bad about spanking us so bad.
Joe Salt
D
DJ300Ack
Guest
pointing die
Thanks for the info
Thanks for the info
The real story
OK DOC, here it is.
In 2002, David Tooley brought some meplat uniformed bullets to Hawks Ridge. Like everything else I can remember David testing, the bullets shot lights out and he won that weekend. The tool he used during that time is now marketed by David Tubb.
I also found the meplat uniforming to have real value on my 338 UGA and I won the wood at the first weekend I tried it. Thereafter, I wanted to recapture the BC that was lost with the meplat trim.
I got in touch with Ferris Pindell, and we started on a journey together. Very long story short, I paid for all the research and development for the creation of the meplat closing die -- more than a fine custom 1000 gun with a S&B scope.
Through testing, Ferris and I determined that four different meplat angles to close the meplats would work on most bullets. He was correct. In late 2002, Ferris called me and said he had finished the final details -- and the die. He was very excited. I wanted the best for Ferris, who has never gotten the credit for much of his work, and left the die for him to patent.
Ferris had a working relationship with Harrold "Bubba" Beal who was a principal in what was once Powell River Labs or something like that -- made really special bullets with amazing core materials. Bubba had much patent experience and he got the patent on the die. I made Ferris an independent referal to a patent attorney so that Ferris could get his slice of the pie. I believe (could be wrong) that Bubba's/Ferris' first patent was in 2003. Bubba also entered an even more detailed patent in 2006.
From April to August 2006, John Whidden did a lot of research using the original Pindell die (which I own) and came up with his user friendly version. John continued to made advances on the die, especially with Brian Litz.
Just before Jason Baney won the HG World 1000 Yard Open at the Pa range with his light 6BR, I sent Jason 58 6mm 106 grain VLD Clinch River bulelts that had been pointed with the Pindell die -- nothing else -- no sorting, no trim, just the closing of the meplats. I did not tell him anything about the bullets and asked nothing from him except for his evaluation and testing as he is supurb -- I already knew what his testing would show.
Jason fired the bullets at 1025 (I believe) yards at the PA range in a round robin manner with the pointed and unpointed bullets. The unmodified Clinch River bullets gave Jason a 5.xxx group. However, my bullets gave Jason a 2.xxx group -- about 18" higher on the target. He posted the results, with pictures, on this board.
Jason's test got the attention of Bryan Litz. After a few posts (you can research the archives), Bryan did some calculations as to the windage advantage based on the difference in vertical. It was impressive. Of course, Jason went on to win the HG division of the World Open with his 15+ pound 6BR shooting -- pointed bullets.
Ferris also made me a mini lathe about 9" long (very heavy) to uniform the meplats (like David Tooley) as well as the interior of the meplats so that thick jackest could be closed small, i.e., 300 and 320 SMK.
John Whidden made arrangements with Bubba to produce his user friendly die. The Hoover die is a pretty copy of John's die -- and it is a very good die. No problem there. However it is a blatent patent infringement of both patents. If you take a look at the Whidden die vs. the Hoover die, you will see that they are VERY similar. All this by chance? I don't think so.
In 2009, I scored a very accomplished High Master Palma competitor shooting my bullets at 600 yards in great conditions against the Hoover bullets from the prone position with iron sights. The Hover bullets shot a clean with a little better than X ring vertical. The Pindell bullets shot a clean with less than 1/2 X ring vertical.
The on my face comes from knowing that I had a large part in the development of the die and that Ferris got a slice of the pie. The comes when I see others making an end run around the patents.
I believe Joel purchased his die from Ferris at the Super Shoot one year. Ferris made a few and I saw one for sale on 6mmBR.com a few years back. Ferris also gave a couple away -- he is just a prince of a man who wants to make a difference.
Between the Whidden die and the Hoover die, which one is best? I don't know. But I can tell you that I believe that my individual Pindell die is hard to beat. Here is the reason. Anyone who makes their own bullets, like Jackie, Bart, etc. will tell you that you can order carbide dies from the very best but there is NO guarantee that your dies will make Championship bullets. With meplat closing dies, it is the same story. The more parts you have the more chance that the bullets don't point dead nuts to the center of the core, ogive, and meplat. I just happen to have a die made by the master that is dead nuts and will close the meplats on anything from a 338 to a 224 -- dead center with the core, ogive and meplat -- they fly straight. Another Pindell die might or might not be a "hummer" just like carbide bullet making dies. BTW, I have never made a dime on any bullets I have ever pointed up for any shooter. I have now closed the meplats on about 60,000.
I will say this: Those who fly in the air space of two legit patents, while laying claims to the invention, have short wings as they are just one C&D letter away from being clipped. To the shooter who gets a die to close his meplats, he does not really care about all this. To the co-inventor, who paid thousands for the R&D while doing all of the testing, or the die developer who got permission, it can mean something else on a given occasion.
There you go. The real story. Check it out with Jason Baney and John Whidden. Buy any die you like -- the Whidden or the Hoover. Either will serve you well. Mine is not for sale.
Favor Center,
Jim Hardy
OK DOC, here it is.
In 2002, David Tooley brought some meplat uniformed bullets to Hawks Ridge. Like everything else I can remember David testing, the bullets shot lights out and he won that weekend. The tool he used during that time is now marketed by David Tubb.
I also found the meplat uniforming to have real value on my 338 UGA and I won the wood at the first weekend I tried it. Thereafter, I wanted to recapture the BC that was lost with the meplat trim.
I got in touch with Ferris Pindell, and we started on a journey together. Very long story short, I paid for all the research and development for the creation of the meplat closing die -- more than a fine custom 1000 gun with a S&B scope.
Through testing, Ferris and I determined that four different meplat angles to close the meplats would work on most bullets. He was correct. In late 2002, Ferris called me and said he had finished the final details -- and the die. He was very excited. I wanted the best for Ferris, who has never gotten the credit for much of his work, and left the die for him to patent.
Ferris had a working relationship with Harrold "Bubba" Beal who was a principal in what was once Powell River Labs or something like that -- made really special bullets with amazing core materials. Bubba had much patent experience and he got the patent on the die. I made Ferris an independent referal to a patent attorney so that Ferris could get his slice of the pie. I believe (could be wrong) that Bubba's/Ferris' first patent was in 2003. Bubba also entered an even more detailed patent in 2006.
From April to August 2006, John Whidden did a lot of research using the original Pindell die (which I own) and came up with his user friendly version. John continued to made advances on the die, especially with Brian Litz.
Just before Jason Baney won the HG World 1000 Yard Open at the Pa range with his light 6BR, I sent Jason 58 6mm 106 grain VLD Clinch River bulelts that had been pointed with the Pindell die -- nothing else -- no sorting, no trim, just the closing of the meplats. I did not tell him anything about the bullets and asked nothing from him except for his evaluation and testing as he is supurb -- I already knew what his testing would show.
Jason fired the bullets at 1025 (I believe) yards at the PA range in a round robin manner with the pointed and unpointed bullets. The unmodified Clinch River bullets gave Jason a 5.xxx group. However, my bullets gave Jason a 2.xxx group -- about 18" higher on the target. He posted the results, with pictures, on this board.
Jason's test got the attention of Bryan Litz. After a few posts (you can research the archives), Bryan did some calculations as to the windage advantage based on the difference in vertical. It was impressive. Of course, Jason went on to win the HG division of the World Open with his 15+ pound 6BR shooting -- pointed bullets.
Ferris also made me a mini lathe about 9" long (very heavy) to uniform the meplats (like David Tooley) as well as the interior of the meplats so that thick jackest could be closed small, i.e., 300 and 320 SMK.
John Whidden made arrangements with Bubba to produce his user friendly die. The Hoover die is a pretty copy of John's die -- and it is a very good die. No problem there. However it is a blatent patent infringement of both patents. If you take a look at the Whidden die vs. the Hoover die, you will see that they are VERY similar. All this by chance? I don't think so.
In 2009, I scored a very accomplished High Master Palma competitor shooting my bullets at 600 yards in great conditions against the Hoover bullets from the prone position with iron sights. The Hover bullets shot a clean with a little better than X ring vertical. The Pindell bullets shot a clean with less than 1/2 X ring vertical.
The
on my face comes from knowing that I had a large part in the development of the die and that Ferris got a slice of the pie. The comes when I see others making an end run around the patents. I believe Joel purchased his die from Ferris at the Super Shoot one year. Ferris made a few and I saw one for sale on 6mmBR.com a few years back. Ferris also gave a couple away -- he is just a prince of a man who wants to make a difference.
Between the Whidden die and the Hoover die, which one is best? I don't know. But I can tell you that I believe that my individual Pindell die is hard to beat. Here is the reason. Anyone who makes their own bullets, like Jackie, Bart, etc. will tell you that you can order carbide dies from the very best but there is NO guarantee that your dies will make Championship bullets. With meplat closing dies, it is the same story. The more parts you have the more chance that the bullets don't point dead nuts to the center of the core, ogive, and meplat. I just happen to have a die made by the master that is dead nuts and will close the meplats on anything from a 338 to a 224 -- dead center with the core, ogive and meplat -- they fly straight. Another Pindell die might or might not be a "hummer" just like carbide bullet making dies. BTW, I have never made a dime on any bullets I have ever pointed up for any shooter. I have now closed the meplats on about 60,000.
I will say this: Those who fly in the air space of two legit patents, while laying claims to the invention, have short wings as they are just one C&D letter away from being clipped. To the shooter who gets a die to close his meplats, he does not really care about all this. To the co-inventor, who paid thousands for the R&D while doing all of the testing, or the die developer who got permission, it can mean something else on a given occasion.
There you go. The real story. Check it out with Jason Baney and John Whidden. Buy any die you like -- the Whidden or the Hoover. Either will serve you well. Mine is not for sale.
Favor Center,
Jim Hardy
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V
vinny
Guest
Thank you!
O
oneflyer
Guest
Some give back-- some just take. Nuff said.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Well written and very interesting.
The world is getting a bit more cut-throat everyday..
I have a Whidden, and found it intersting that another version popped up out of the blue -just afterward.
But then I also have a Farley and scratch my head over the sudden copies dividing their market.
Same with Hornady's ChargeMaster copy.
Harris bipod copies.
And various scope copying.
You watch, within a couple years every maker will have 10:1 eyepiece zooming and extreme magnification -now that it's out there to copy.
Is it good for us?
Only in the very short term.
But it will kill marketing of innovations in the long term(too risky).
Why would I bring a better mouse trap to market, only to have potential reward(payback) stolen?
I have a Whidden, and found it intersting that another version popped up out of the blue -just afterward.
But then I also have a Farley and scratch my head over the sudden copies dividing their market.
Same with Hornady's ChargeMaster copy.
Harris bipod copies.
And various scope copying.
You watch, within a couple years every maker will have 10:1 eyepiece zooming and extreme magnification -now that it's out there to copy.
Is it good for us?
Only in the very short term.
But it will kill marketing of innovations in the long term(too risky).
Why would I bring a better mouse trap to market, only to have potential reward(payback) stolen?
J
Jefferson
Guest
thank you for the great information
a few comments are in order,
1. in any patent infreingement there has to be steps taken to protect the patent, and that can still be done, but I am wondering if these "gentlemen" have ever been approached to "ante" up .
I am perhaps going to buy a die this summer just to play with as i dont compete in long range but just want to play a bit,
what about setting aside a "fee" on each die sold of $20 to go to a find to the patent holder,
before you all get carried away like the export/import fiaxco thread, this is just a way of broaching the subject towards a solution,
otherwise this thread will go the way of the dodo bird.
thanks Law Dawg, a nice background to a bit of potentially messy issue
Jefferson
(previous patent infreingement experience on flame retardant coveralls in canada, true)
a few comments are in order,
1. in any patent infreingement there has to be steps taken to protect the patent, and that can still be done, but I am wondering if these "gentlemen" have ever been approached to "ante" up .
I am perhaps going to buy a die this summer just to play with as i dont compete in long range but just want to play a bit,
what about setting aside a "fee" on each die sold of $20 to go to a find to the patent holder,
before you all get carried away like the export/import fiaxco thread, this is just a way of broaching the subject towards a solution,
otherwise this thread will go the way of the dodo bird.
thanks Law Dawg, a nice background to a bit of potentially messy issue
Jefferson
(previous patent infreingement experience on flame retardant coveralls in canada, true)
Last edited by a moderator: