Bullet Making (originally owned by Stephen Perry)

BR Bullet Making

J. Valentine,
I do my bullets the way you said, I roll the jackets on a ink pad, and put some lube on three fingers on my left hand (I keep my right hand clean). When I core my jackets I use my left hand to pickup the jackets and my right hand to insert the cores, that way the cores are clean and the jackets are lubed (I use TSP to oxidize my cores). I roll the jackets between my fingers and then seat the core. I let the cored jackets sit for a day before I start to point them. Again when I start to point my bullets I put alittle lube on three fingers (left hand) roll the cored jacket between my fingers and then point them. I have been coming up with some good BR bullets (112 and 118s)
john
 
re lube amounts..

I found most lube problem on the core seating operation.. With too little lube, i seem to get more variation in the bullet length than i would like.. too much lube and the bullet don't want to come off the punch on the eject stroke.

. Here is where Randy's record keeping suggestion helps me most.. when you find out what amount of lube gives the longest bullet and still pulls off the core seating punch you will be glad you recorded the lube weight for future reference.. as far as pointing, too much lube seems to result in exaggerated pleats..

When i first started Bill had said to use a pea sized amount of lube per bucket of jackets (6mm .825) the right size pea became important to me..now i use (9) grains if Bill Niemis lube I'm sure the amount depends a bit on what you are lubing in.

Kirk
 
I found most lube problem on the core seating operation.. With too little lube, i seem to get more variation in the bullet length than i would like.. too much lube and the bullet don't want to come off the punch on the eject stroke.

. Here is where Randy's record keeping suggestion helps me most.. when you find out what amount of lube gives the longest bullet and still pulls off the core seating punch you will be glad you recorded the lube weight for future reference.. as far as pointing, too much lube seems to result in exaggerated pleats..

When i first started Bill had said to use a pea sized amount of lube per bucket of jackets (6mm .825) the right size pea became important to me..now i use (9) grains if Bill Niemis lube I'm sure the amount depends a bit on what you are lubing in.

Kirk

That's true . You can have trouble with a jacket not coming off the punch with too much lube but If you just reseat the core it usually comes off the second time.
If it happens often then maybe your punch diameter is not perfect.
Sometimes you need a punch you don't have that is inbetween the ones you do have. It's annoying.
When I first started I weighed lube and tumbled it on but with using different length jackets and different calibers it became a headache trying to work out how much for each different batch.
If you are making a thousand at a time and you want to process the whole batch as one then weighing and tumbling the lube on is quite ok .
Excessive lube in the point former is more serious in my view and you are right it does seem to increase wrinkling on longer ogives . I don't seem to have any trouble with ogives under 7 or 8 cal .
However I just point form with the lube that is left after core swaging and only add lube very sparingly if I start to detect harder ejection on the next bullet and then continue on. I can't detect any diameter difference doing it this way with standard elcheapo micrometers.
However I have to admit that weighing lube is a more precise way to apply it than manualy .
If you are only making 6 mm bullets for BR in one style jacket with batches in the thousands then weighing lube is more precise.
However I some times sit down and make 50, 308 corebonded bullets to use on a hunt and I am not going to bother weighing and tumbling lube for 50 hunting bullets. Manual lubing has it's place as does weighing lube .
You can make excellent bullets both ways.
 
J. Valentine,
I do my bullets the way you said, I roll the jackets on a ink pad, and put some lube on three fingers on my left hand (I keep my right hand clean). When I core my jackets I use my left hand to pickup the jackets and my right hand to insert the cores, that way the cores are clean and the jackets are lubed (I use TSP to oxidize my cores). I roll the jackets between my fingers and then seat the core. I let the cored jackets sit for a day before I start to point them. Again when I start to point my bullets I put alittle lube on three fingers (left hand) roll the cored jacket between my fingers and then point them. I have been coming up with some good BR bullets (112 and 118s)
john

It works well for me also.
TSP would be Trisodium phosphate I would think.
It is an alkaline substance.
Now brass does not like Ammonia or amines , alkaline substances
The bullet jacket is a type of brass usually guilding metal 95 % copper 5% zinc . These substances will attack brass and harden it and make it brittle.
So if you are shooting your bullets within a few months or jsut shooting at targets then it has little effect on anything.
However if you are making loose core hunting bullets and storing them for a year or two or more then I would not expose the cores to TSP . I would just degrease the cores in a hydrocarbon solvent and let them stand for some time and then seat them as is. This way your stored bullet will not develope a brittle jacket.
 
What Ogive?

First thing first. I want to thank every one for the input on Bullet building. I am new so bear with me. In the 6mm's (66gr and 68grs) What ogive gives the best accuracy?. Jacket length? What about the 105's and 108's? What jacket length? Thick or thin jackets in all the bullets mentioned?

thanks for your input...
 
First thing first. I want to thank every one for the input on Bullet building. I am new so bear with me. In the 6mm's (66gr and 68grs) What ogive gives the best accuracy?. Jacket length? What about the 105's and 108's? What jacket length? Thick or thin jackets in all the bullets mentioned?

thanks for your input...

Unless something has changed, Berger/J4 will not part with the 'thick jackets', so the options aren't as confusing . . . but, things CHANGE all the time! :D For the 105-108Gr., 6mms, you'll probably want 1.150" long jackets. RG
 
First thing first. I want to thank every one for the input on Bullet building. I am new so bear with me. In the 6mm's (66gr and 68grs) What ogive gives the best accuracy?. Jacket length? What about the 105's and 108's? What jacket length? Thick or thin jackets in all the bullets mentioned?

thanks for your input...

Randy is very close I would think. It is very hard to predict exactly what weight a ceratain jacket will make unless you know exactly the form off the bullet , long ogives tend to take less lead than fatter ogives . Boattails take less lead than flat base . Exposed lead tip will take more lead and make a heavier bullet in the same jacket.
Don't buy a huge batch of jackets straight up just incase your bullet form requires a different jacket. Once you know the jacket is right for the bullet you are making then you can buy a larger amount if you wish.
It just that I have made that mistake years ago and had bags and bags of jackets laying around that were not the right ones.
However I eventually used most of them up.
 
Br Bullet making

I think if you ask Eric really nice he will send a few samples . That way you can get the right jacket for the particular weight bullet you want to make.
I asked about some 30 cals to make 150 gr pills . Eric was kind enough
to send a few samples , with lot numbers for testing.
Berger Bullets is a class act'''
 
Next Question??

Which Electronic scale would you buy? For weighing the jackets and cores.

If you were going to build 6mm flat base bullets in the 66 to 68 gr weights
which OG would you choose and why?

What jacket lenght would you use for them?

What OG would you choose for the 6mm BT bullets in the 95grs to 110 grs?

Is the 1.150 jacket the right jacket lenght for these?


thanks for your input :)
 
Br Bullet making

The 66gr i use the 790 jackets.
The 68 gr i use the 825 jacket

I have limited time on the longer 6mms I don't have the boat tail punch or seater.
I have made some 90 gr bullets on the 1.050 jacket
I also have made a few on the 1 .150 jacket in the 100 gr range.
The bearing serface is quite long on these . They look like an old 6.5 X55 bullet even with a 8 ogive. I'm sure a boat tail core seater and point punch would make a better bullet. I'm concerned about pressure.
My conclusion is that the boat tail helps reduce pressure by makeing the bearing surface shorter. I believe that makeing it shorter give the weight without excessive bearing surface.
Remember your going to need a differnt punch on the longer jackets too.
I hope this help out some.
Ps these are just my conclusions on the long jackets.
 
With the thought that: "Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by fighting back". (Paul Erdos, I believe?)....bullet making to me is a constant effort of tweaking, finding the weak spots and making that part of the process better.

One of the things about bullet making with steel dies is the fact that they require more lube than carbide. Generally speaking, bullets from a steel die require more ejection effort that from a carbide die. This is one of the reasons that most makers of steel dies like to have a bit of taper on the shank of the point up die..to ease the ejection effort.

When Larry Blackmon made my steel dies, I specified a straight shank. I did this for a number of reasons, chiefly because I feel a straight shank bullet 'tunes up' better than a tapered shank bullet. I'm talking .30's here 'cuz I'm ignorant about anything else. The success of the tapered shank/double ogive 6's are undeniable, but I'm not convinced that crosses over directly to the .30's. Anyhow.....

One of the consequences of Larry making my point die 'straight up' is that there's always a bit of 'fuzz' at the tip of the bullet, due to the ejection effort. I've made my own ejection punches with different profiles on the end to help this, but the reality is that's just a part of the process. It doesn't hurt anything and it's no worse than many other custom bullets I've seen, but it still bugs me. Some lots of jackets are better than others in this regard.

In an effort to reduce the ejection effort, I just had the point die that's used for my B-1 Wide Body ;) bullets salt bath treated by Joel Kendick. With the promise of decreased friction, maybe this will help in the ejection effort. If it does, it does. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But it will be an interesting test to try.

Lube is an important part of the equation. Decreasing the ejection effort seems...on the surface...to be a matter of finding a 'slippery-er' lube. But as weird as it sounds, some of the super slick lubes I've brewed up caused the bullet dimensions to vary greatly. Seems like a bit of 'drag' is needed for consistency. The best lube I've found is the brew from The Clan Robinett out of Madrid, Iowa. :D

Nitrocarburized die on the left, standard die on the right.

d1-1.jpg
 
Mr Valentine, "Core Bonded" bullets

What is a core bonded bullet.? I've heard this term used by a commercial bullet manufacturer but not yet heard a custom maker use this term...

what is this??

thanks!

Kirk
 
Jacket length vs bullet wt for Randy Robinette

When you buy a die, you buy for the style and wt bullet you want to make... The bullet wt per jacket length is pretty standard. only extremes would be hard to predict. the variation in wt per jacket length is relatively small. The die maker will be able to tell you what you need based on the bullet you want to make.

I wouldn't expect to be able to make a good 105 grain bullet on a 1.15 inch jacket from the same die my excellent 65 grain bullet on .825 jacket is made.

If i could, i wouldn't be buying them from Randy. These heavier bullets are made on a "long shank" die built specifically for the longer jackets required. I think they require a different core seating die too don't they Randy?

Kirk



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jacket length

The die is made longer with different length punches,
IE the body {bearing surface is longer.
You can use several length jackets on both the point and seater die.
I tried it and it works fine.
The die body has enough throw.
Pressure bands are very close also
 
Original Gerry

This question is for the Gerry that helped start this Thread. Gerry you stated that you use a set of Simonson bullet dies. I too use Simonson dies. If your dies are for making 6 bullets have you ever made heavy 6 bullets like 95 and 105 grn. I would like to make some of the heavy 6 bullets with my Simonson dies. Gerry if you have made the heavies what length jacket do you use. My dies now are set up to use .825 jackets. Will the Simonson die allow me to use jackets long enough to make the heavies. Thanks.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Al, i was just wondering what did the carburizing do to your bore size?with die's being relativly thick walled carburizing should make bore larger.just wondering what you found. george
 
Stephen, jacket length is held to depth of cavity,i would say that a depth of 1.400 in. for a boattail would probably work on a 1.150 jacket of course you would have a whole lot of bearing surface. 1.400 would be the minimum to get by with actual vld dies are deeper. george
 
Br Bullet making

The longest bullet i could make was on a 80 gr on a .900 jacket with the Simonson dies
I had to Reregister due to pass word difficulty and no reply for some reason{maybe a glitch somewhere}
I'm the original Gerry.
I also said i have a Detsch die. David made it so i could make heavy or light bullets on it,
The Detsch die is a 8 og point die and is also beautiful like Bobs.
It has the small knock out pin/
The pressure ring at the 68 gr is about .0003 and when i made a few samples on the longer jackets it was about.0004
I'm glad the other bullet makers chipped in and a die maker. They put some pretty good information on, for higher production.
I think the key for that is the carrier from one station to another
 
GerryM

Thanks for the reply Gerry. I will get me some .900 jackets and make me 80 grn bullets. I wanted to try some heavier 6 bullets in my 6x47 lapua.
The barrel is a 1-8 twist Krieger that I use for 200-600M silohouette. I used my 66 grn on the 600M silohouette prairie dogs and did well with my 6x47 Rem but I was having a good day. My main gun for the silohouette game is my 6x47 lapua, sleeved Remington 600 action, McMillan stock, Leupold 36x, Jewell trigger. Nice gun weighs 15 lb. Give those bullets a try.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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What is a core bonded bullet.? I've heard this term used by a commercial bullet manufacturer but not yet heard a custom maker use this term...

what is this??

thanks!

Kirk

Core bonding is a process that joins the core of the bullet to the jacket material.
There is a few ways to do it and most factory bullets are chemical bonded because that works into a mass production system well.
Most amatures use the solder process it is quite simple and requires few tools.
The process is based on melting the loose lead core in an unswaged bullet jacket in the presence of a soldering flux. Resulting in a lead core that is strongly soldered to the inside of the jacket.

Prepare a heat resistant block to support jackets during heating by drilling some holes into a fire brick or similar. Use a drill press so that the holes are nice and vertical. Holes should only be deep enough to support jackets and keep them vertical. Make holes slightly larger than jacket to allow for heat expansion. During use place extra bricks around the sides of the support brick to trap heat at the jackets. Make sure that bricks are placed on a flat level surface so jackets are infact close to vertical during heating.

Prepare jackets and cores as for normal swaging up to the point just before you would normally core seat. Wash out the inside of the clean jacket with a cotton tip dipped in Zinc Chloride flux ( Bakers flux) available from hardware stores . Then dip whole core into same flux using a set of large tweezers and place core inside jacket making sure cores are against inner base.
Then place jackets into support fire brick and apply heat on one jacket at a time with a paint stripper heat gun. Watch each lead core to make sure that the lead melts completely before moving on to the next.
On cooling a small hole will appear in the face of the lead core. This is normal and will be flattened down by the core seating punch.

Allow jackets to cool but while they are still slightly warm place them into a mixture of 50% CLR ( Sulfamic Acid (Household bathroom cleaner ))50% water or Medtech Solution ( medical instrument cleaner) to remove flux residue.
This is the only hard part of the process, getting the flux residue off.
There may be other better cleaners but don't use ammonias or amines as they harden brass.
Wear some protective gloves.
Agitate the mixture and scrub the surface of the lead core with a small brush if necessary, until clean.
Rinse off in hot water twice.
If jackets are still discolored then place in tumbler with treated walnut media and polish , or for a small batch polish them up by hand using steel wool .
Wash off media residue by replacing in solutions above for short time and then wash in hot water twice. Give a final wash in a fast drying solvent like Shelite ( liquid hydrocarbon). Place bullets on a tray and spread them out . Place tray out in sun until completely dry . Caution* Do not be tempted to use heat gun to dry bullets as you may melt the cores* If you are in a hurry you can use a hair dryer no closer than 12 inches.

Lubricate as required with a non detonating swaging lubricant ( 50% lanolin ( Wool Fat) and 50% Vaseline ( Petroleum Jelly). Heat and mix.

Carryout core seating as normal using a neat fitting punch that will not allow any side bleed of lead from the core.

Point form as normal. You will notice on point forming that a slight radius is formed at the junction of the jacket wall and base. Like a very small boat tail. This is because the core bonded bullet is a lot stronger and does not let this part of the core move much during point forming pressure on the base. So usually it takes a lot more pressure to flatten the edges of the base than to form the ogive. This will vary according to the length of ogive, jacket thickness etc etc.
It is not detrimental that I can tell and may even help down range ballistics as per a slight boat tail.
Improves bullet seating .

If you get core bonded and loose core bullets mixed-up then you can tell them apart by the larger radius on the base of the bonded bullet. This process is most suitable for bullets with shorter ogives say 8 caliber and under. Most big game bullets are the shorter ogive anyway. Having said that there is no reason why you cant core bond any style of jacketed bullet having a gilding metal jacket.

The melting of the cores anneals the jacket making it much tougher and resistant to fracture on impact.
Downside is that a softer jacket will foul a bit more. I molycoat mine anyway and that helps to cancel this out.

Core bonded bullets have a unique performance capability. This is the ability to open fast like a normal bullet but arrest that expansion as the expanding lead pulls at the core bonded section.
It works like this. During point forming a small section of unbonded lead is ballooned forward to fill a section of the ogive. It is still connected to the original core by the strength of the lead. On impact this front section can expand rapidly but as soon as the lead and jacket are stretched to a point where the core bonded section starts, this rapid expansion slows and a more controlled expansion continues . Retaining a high percentage of bullet weight and producing a nice even mushroom.
That’s about all you need to know, I hope it helps you make some great game bullets or whatever. I am very happy with the performance of core bonded bullets made with this process. Jacket thickness is not a big issue as you can make a good medium game bullet out of a thin J4 target style jacket.


Written by John Valentine 20 / 05 / 91 Copyright .
 
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