Build It Yourself?

[Phil3]

Hi Phil, I understand where you are coming from - there are probably alot more like us. Not quite ready to dive into full BR, but wanting to find a rifle that will group well as we inch along getting better.

The BR guys I have met have been nothing but great in offering to help though. They have tons of information they have picked up and are more than willing to share... which is what they are doing in this thread. Sometimes it sounds like they are pushing you one way, but really they are hoping to keep you from making the mistakes they did.

As to right forum or not, I don't really think you are in the wrong one - this is the place you want to be. I have looked (for a while now) and this is as close to what you want (I think) as you can find. If you live near where one of the groups (Denton, Tomball, etc) meet for matches - do yourself a BIG Favor and visit these guys. It is a world of diffenece to sit and visit with them in person. Some day I might be able to have a BR level rifle and spend even more time - something that will not happen now, but I hope it will in the future.

Hope this helps a little and Good Luck.

A person here has been a bit of mentor for me, and I do recognize that people are only trying to steer me to the right equipment and avoidance of mistakes others have made.

What I "want" is perhaps at the crux of the matter. Simply put, I wish to hit the X, at longer range, using a good rifle, but not necessarily something that is built solely for just that, no expense spared. I personally, would derive just as much enjoyment shooting my AR15, developing loads, and honing shooting skills to shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards as I would a dedicated BR rifle shooting zeros. But, there is no place for that in BR. If F/TR was off the bench, that would be quite attractive, especially if confined to factory guns and/or novice shooters. There is such a huge run on AR15s, of which many are shot off the bench, you could have a class just for those. I would attend that for sure.

It is hard to dispute that a very accurate rifle would give superior feedback on what it is the shooter is doing wrong. Ironic that a BR rifle, the high end gun may be the best instrument to educate novice shooters.

BR is more or less it appears, all or nothing, for rifles and shooters alike, making entry into the sport difficult and intimidating. This, not withstanding mentoring I have received.

I have shot two BR rifles, one at a match at 1000 yards, and have met with the "guys" twice. I still feel like a fish out of water. These guys are talking at such a level, that even with all I have learned, I am an amoeba on the evolutionary scale compared to them. These guys will forget more than I will ever know. I am 56 years old, and was one of the younger people there.

I plan to attend a match at my local range, but was "warned", these guys are serious and the winds tricky. Gee, thanks for the encouragement...

- Phil

 

[Phil3]

Phil,

Before you do anything.....call Don Nielson, he's in California, a top notch gunsmith, a Short and Long Range BR shooter.

If you still want a savage....Mark that PM'd you on here. The rifle he's talking about would be a very good buy. I've seen it shoot... You'll have to ask Mark about the Weight.

Hovis

Hovis, thank you. I am in contact with Mark. I have asked about the weight.

- Phil

 

[tobybradshaw]

Simply put, I wish to hit the X, at longer range, using a good rifle, but not necessarily something that is built solely for just that, no expense spared.

And for your $1500 budget a used BR rifle is the answer to your wish.

Plus, there is a whole branch of the sport dedicated to hitting the X if that appeals to you more than group shooting.

Ironic that a BR rifle, the high end gun may be the best instrument to educate novice shooters.

And it is an instrument that holds its resale value if you decide that the sport isn't for you after all.

BR is more or less it appears, all or nothing, for rifles and shooters alike, making entry into the sport difficult and intimidating.

This would be true if BR shooters were not so darn friendly and helpful to newcomers.

I plan to attend a match at my local range, but was "warned", these guys are serious and the winds tricky.

Go anyway. I'll bet good money that the "warning" was erroneous. Besides, "serious" shooters and tricky winds are not a problem. "Serious" does not mean "unfriendly," and tricky winds are one of the things that make this game challenging. If you can enjoy learning BR without winning all the time, there's no time like the present to get started.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net

 

[Phil3]

What branch of the sport is dedicated to hitting the X? I never really understood the point of groups, other than to highlight the performance of the rifle. I must be missing something here.

I may not have made myself clear on the "all or nothing" comment with BR. Not saying people are not helpful. The BR discipline itself is all or nothing. That is, it appears to me that there is no novice class, stock rifle class, etc. Maybe I am missing this, but if wanted to shoot say 100 - 200 yard BR, you are in with very serious shooters and equipment. This is like a person wanting to race their Mazda Miata sports car in a fun race, and then being told you will be mentored by NASCAR drivers, you need to have their caliber of equipment and your first race will be the Daytona 500. No thanks. There is no "intro" class for newbies (that I know of).

Just my perspective, and if I have this wrong, and there are other avenues, I would love to hear them.

I will attend the local match, warnings or not from the range director.

- Phil

 

[tobybradshaw]

What branch of the sport is dedicated to hitting the X?

Score shooting. Several classes, with various restrictions on caliber, case capacity, scope power, forend width, etc.

Go to the IBS website http://internationalbenchrest.com/ and look under "Disciplines" and "Score Shooting."

Warning: the "X" ain't very big!

I never really understood the point of groups, other than to highlight the performance of the rifle. I must be missing something here.

Unfortunately (for me) it also highlights the (non)performance of the shooter.

Maybe I am missing this, but if wanted to shoot say 100 - 200 yard BR, you are in with very serious shooters and equipment. This is like a person wanting to race their Mazda Miata sports car in a fun race, and then being told you will be mentored by NASCAR drivers, you need to have their caliber of equipment and your first race will be the Daytona 500. No thanks. There is no "intro" class for newbies (that I know of).

Lots of ranges have a factory class. The rules vary, but generally along the lines of factory action, trigger, barrel, and stock with some trigger tinkering and bedding allowed. Sometimes there is scope power restriction, too, and sometimes no single-shot bolt actions are allowed.

This can be a good way to get started, but if you want to be competitive (and nobody likes to lose all the time) you end up having to sort through factory rifles to find a really good one (because a really good one is a happy accident of mass production), which ends up being more expensive than a full-on BR rifle.

I mean, honestly, we're not talking about THAT much money to have a top-notch used BR rifle, and for that low, low price we can be sitting on the bench next to a Hall of Fame, world-record holding shooter who will help us over the speedbumps.

And, yes, if I were just learning to drive a race car I would very much appreciate being mentored by the top people in the sport, rather than by some weekend club racers.

I will attend the local match, warnings or not from the range director.

- Phil

Great! Let us know how it goes. Get there early, give them a hand hanging/pulling targets, and you will be more than welcome anytime!

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net

 

[MikeCTX]

I have shot two BR rifles, one at a match at 1000 yards, and have met with the "guys" twice. I still feel like a fish out of water. These guys are talking at such a level, that even with all I have learned, I am an amoeba on the evolutionary scale compared to them. These guys will forget more than I will ever know. I am 56 years old, and was one of the younger people there.

I plan to attend a match at my local range, but was "warned", these guys are serious and the winds tricky. Gee, thanks for the encouragement...

- Phil

Hey Phil, you could have written this part and been talking about me

Yes, it would sure be nice for there to be a 'true' factory class - and there may be, but most of what I've seen looks to be much more like the other classes - NOTEo not claim to understand it all, so I may be completely wrong, just stating how it looks from the outside. And yes you can find good used BR riggs for $1500-$2000, but there is never any mention as to what else is required - a good scope (though I have seen several Weaver T36 listed and those are around $400 new), then there are components - which you will have no matter what 'type' of shooting you will do.

Will I try BR? don't know...there are outside (of shooting) issues that will keep me from it for now. Later when things change, I really hope I can - got to tell you the guys in Denton really made me feel at home, like I was part of the group and was only there for a few hours - don't get that kind of feeling with just any sport.

So, yeah I really do understand , and have a Savage as well - so from that standpoint I would say go for it. Been keeping up with one of the guys that shoots in Denton, and he is using a Savage...and does OK (heck they all shoot better than I do anyhow). For me it is not the competition...it's about the fun and trying to beat my personal best. I'd buy/build the Savage and get out there and send some rounds down range, it later on you want to go the whole BR route, well you can sell the Savage or just keep it and use it for non-competition - Plus have the pleasure of knowing what you can do with it.

 

[TheGrandEnigma]

Hey Phil,

Been following the thread for a couple days. I thought it was neat because I also want to build a savage into a baby BR gun.

I completely understand the other arguments here, but I'm really wanting to build a rifle myself, not buy one somebody else built up (Even if it will be easier in the end). I might go that way anyway, but we'll see. I doubt there's much BR around where I am, so I might not have much choice.

Seems like a great forum, glad to be here.

 

[alinwa]

Welcome TGE...

I knew a girl, her name was June.

She lived just south of you...

al

 

[Phil3]

Score shooting. Several classes, with various restrictions on caliber, case capacity, scope power, forend width, etc.

Go to the IBS website http://internationalbenchrest.com/ and look under "Disciplines" and "Score Shooting."

Warning: the "X" ain't very big!



Unfortunately (for me) it also highlights the (non)performance of the shooter.



Lots of ranges have a factory class. The rules vary, but generally along the lines of factory action, trigger, barrel, and stock with some trigger tinkering and bedding allowed. Sometimes there is scope power restriction, too, and sometimes no single-shot bolt actions are allowed.

This can be a good way to get started, but if you want to be competitive (and nobody likes to lose all the time) you end up having to sort through factory rifles to find a really good one (because a really good one is a happy accident of mass production), which ends up being more expensive than a full-on BR rifle.

I mean, honestly, we're not talking about THAT much money to have a top-notch used BR rifle, and for that low, low price we can be sitting on the bench next to a Hall of Fame, world-record holding shooter who will help us over the speedbumps.

And, yes, if I were just learning to drive a race car I would very much appreciate being mentored by the top people in the sport, rather than by some weekend club racers.



Great! Let us know how it goes. Get there early, give them a hand hanging/pulling targets, and you will be more than welcome anytime!

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net

Toby,

IBS isn't in California. There is no local club over 200 yards, but need to check how those score their matches. There is only one long distance range, and did not see any score only matches for benchrest. No could I find any range (so far) that has a factory class. My local club benchrest match rules are not sanctioned and are primarily based on weight, with lighter classes limited on scope power. Other than that, anything goes. This of course rewards those with big investments in equipment, but squeezes out people like me, who want to compete against others with more or less factory rifles.

I don't think that anyone who would participate in a factory class would spend large sums of money trying to find a real shooter out of a bunch of mass produced guns. My sense is that anyone willing to spend that kind of money, will be spending it on ONE dedicated BR rifle. I could be wrong, but suspect a factory class will be made up of mostly regular guys using a rifle or two they already had.

Yes, for not that much money I can have a full bore dedicated BR rifle, and be next to a world class shooter. The mentoring, if available, from the person is welcome, but I found I am still too far down the knowledge pole to appreciate what they might tell me. I find there is often an assumption of knowledge by BR shooters that exceeds what the newbie actually has. Not wanting to look like an idiot, the student rarely says anything, walks away, befuddled, and intimidated. This is far more likely to happen the more professional the shooter. In this sense, I really DON'T want to sit next to the pro, they are graduate students and I am still in the 1st grade.

I am not confident BR is for me. I may want to do F-Class or F/TR, or something else. Trying out a discipline by investing 100% into it seems risky. However, it does seem prudent to perhaps buy a dedicated accuracy oriented rifle, that say could shoot in F-Class and NBRSA 600 yard light gun, as well my local matches. That should help me know what I really like, and with a custom gun, if I need to resell, not lose my shirt on it, and move to the most correct platform for the discipline I want, AND that is available. Benchrest in F/TR does not appear to exist.

I found one guy who is willing to show me around at a F-Class match, so may miss the local match to do this. Both my local match and the F-Class are on the same day.

- Phil

 

[Phil3]

For me it is not the competition...it's about the fun and trying to beat my personal best. I'd buy/build the Savage and get out there and send some rounds down range, it later on you want to go the whole BR route, well you can sell the Savage or just keep it and use it for non-competition - Plus have the pleasure of knowing what you can do with it.

This summarizes my feelings pretty well. And could be applicable to shooting my AR15. I want to see what it and I can do. It matters little to me how it competes against a dedicated BR rifle.

I do feel if I bought a Savage, I might have to don my flame suit, so may keep any such purchase rather private.

- Phil

 

[Boyd Allen]

I think that it is only prudent to consider what sort of matches are available locally before investing in specialized equipment.

As to your comment about group shooting, most shooters don't have a rifle that will allow them to appreciate the challenges involved in shooting small groups on a consistent basis. At my local range, I never see anyone but Benchrest shooters using wind flags. What can I say? They are ignoring a major factor. To say that shooting a good group is primarily a function of the accuracy of the rifle speaks loudly of lack of experience with the equipment. This is not a criticism...really. Since my equipment is better than I am, the size of my groups is primarily a reflection of my skill in keeping my rifle in tune, and dealing with conditions, and although some equipment is better than others, for many of us, the shooter is the most important limiting factor, not the rifle. This is not to say that I do not pursue equipment improvement. It is just that I know that what I need most is more trigger time.

 

[nickloy]

Savage BR

Phil,
Sorry for the spelling errors,I am not a typist and did not go back and check my response.
having cleared that up the article on 6MMBR was written more as a historical backgauge than a way to start shooting a 6PPC or a 6/30 BR.
Both will take the same amount of work.Now having said that you can get a 30BR with a standard neck and it will shoot very well,I dont know if it will be as competitive a a tight neck.
If look back in the archives you will see that Jackie S. in Texas is shooting his PPC with a no turn neck.
You can purshase already prepped brass from several sources and the PPC is not hard to fireform,just seat a bullet hard into the lands, fill the case full of
H322 OR N133 and shoot it.From ther just fill the case with N133 and a good Custom Match bullet and have fun.
Nick

 

[Dick Grosbier]

I do feel if I bought a Savage, I might have to don my flame suit,

Phil,
I don't think anybody here will pick on you for buying a Savage. It's simply a fact that when you start posting messages on a website named Benchrest.com you are going to run into a lot of people who are involved in actual Benchrest competition, and feel a true Benchrest rifle even a used one is the best bang for your buck.

Dick

 

[lefty o]

if your goal is not to get into serious organized BR competition, building a savage is a great choice. you can easily build a darned good rifle, and put as little or as much money into it as you want. sharp shooter supply makes a great stock that requires very little work done to it. barrel options are almost unlimited for a savage do it yourself project.

 

[Phil3]

Phil,
I don't think anybody here will pick on you for buying a Savage. It's simply a fact that when you start posting messages on a website named Benchrest.com you are going to run into a lot of people who are involved in actual Benchrest competition, and feel a true Benchrest rifle even a used one is the best bang for your buck.

Dick

Understood, and why I mentioned earlier I may have ventured into the wrong forum. Am curious though, what do people think a 600 yard benchrest rifle should be capable of, in terms of group size, with a good shooter, firing in dead clam, consistent conditions, at 600 yards? I know the record is tiny, but should such a rifle be capable of 1.0" groups at that distance to even be considered a decent BR rifle. 1.5", or...?

- Phil

 

[bcp]

Not benchrest, but still interesting.

Savage at Bisley:

http://www.savagearms.com/BreakingNews08192009.htm

"It seems hard to believe you can compete and win at the highest levels of long-range shooting competition with a stock factory rifle, but that’s exactly what Team Savage did at the recent F Class world championships in Bisley, England. The team dominated the F-T/R division, winning a total of 14 medals at the World Championships proper and various side matches associated with the event."

 

[stevec]

Phil,
A savage is just as capable of tiny groups as a full on
Br action. I have proved it time and again. They are not as "slick" as some of the customs but still are not bad. If you want to punch paper and not break the bank go with the savage.

Steve

 

[mattri]

Great thread.

Phil, I've had a lot of the same goals that you are posting about and have had the same frusrations trying to get information.

I am not looking to join a br club or shoot exclusively in br type comps. What I do want is a rifle that is accurate out to 600 yards that I can shoot at a local range, take out in the desert, or shoot an occasional match here and there.

I have also considered a Savage and heard the same negative feedback. I've tried calling my goal a target/varmint rifle, don't really know how else to describe it.

If the Factory page here isn't the place to discuss this type of project anyone have any suggestions?

Good luck Phil, I hope you get the information that you're looking for, Matt.

 

[tobybradshaw]

Phil, I've had a lot of the same goals that you are posting about and have had the same frusrations trying to get information.

Here's what Phil said in his first post:

"I am after the best accuracy possible and will be using my handloads."

He got (several times) the best available advice to meet his goal -- buy a used benchrest rifle for the greatest accuracy, most bang for the buck, and lowest cost of ownership (highest resale value).

I'm not sure how this is "frustrating."

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net

 

[captbill]

building a savage

I am new to benchrest aslo and had considered building a savage as well. However it simply did not make sense to. Fred will charge you $300 to tune and put a 2oz trigger on it ( he does realy good work) a good barrel fitted and chambered is $450 to $500 a benchrest stock from Fred is $300. So no matter how you add you will have $1000 plus not counting the action the action. I got a realy good deal on a used gun hear for $1600 (panda, jewell trigger,kelby's stock ,3 barrels, dies, rings and brass).
I have shot competitively for 40 years off and on in other dicipliness and can tell you that a trued savage will definately shoot ( I have been beaten by them) but it didn't add up for me.