Build It Yourself?

P

Phil3

Guest
I am considering using a Savage rifle for casual benchrest type shooting, either off a bipod or rest, and would like to build my own. What I don't know anything about is fitting the action/barrel assembly to the stock. Is this something I can do, or does it require a gunsmith or custom builder? I know nothing about bedding, "pillars", etc, having only built an AR15.

I was looking at a Savage right bolt, left port (RBLP) action, Krieger 6mmBR barrel (if they will make), and either a McMillan, Sharp Shooter Supply stock, etc. I am after the best accuracy possible and will be using my handloads.

Thanks.

- Phil
 
Looking for the best accuracy available? Then why in the world would you even consider a Savage action? Do you see many of them on the winning equipment lists?:confused:
 
Big Al said:
Looking for the best accuracy available? Then why in the world would you even consider a Savage action? Do you see many of them on the winning equipment lists?:confused:
Click to expand...

Why consider?

Inexpensive for the accuracy delivered. When asked if a much more costly BR gun would be substantially more accurate than a well built Savage, several BR shooters have said no. I should have explained in the original post, but looking for top accuracy for about $1,500 without optics. This is just for fun, not competition.

Savage is not on winning lists, except in F-Class, where they do win. In BR, they do not, but then they cost half of what the competition does.

- Phil
 
Svage roll-your-own

Phil -

Howdy !

I catch your drift....

Savage rifle action design has made it highly usefull for accuracy rifle work.
The floating bolt head, barrel headspace nut and upscale triggers are some
of the obvious bennies.

One does see Savages on winning equipment lists, certainly in " FACTORY " class.

Use of the Savage action brings with it ability to easily switch barrels.
Pre-chambered ( high qulaity ) barrels can be hade, and then one simply does the headspace/barrel install on their own.

Savages don't appear to require action " trueing ", unlike the Rem's.
Money saved on not having to true the action, can be plowed into other gun-related items, like good scope bases, rings, better scope; et al.

Best of luck in your endeavors.

Regards,
.357Mag
 
Phil3 said:
I should have explained in the original post, but looking for top accuracy for about $1,500 without optics.
Click to expand...

A used BR rifle will be more accurate than the Savage, easier to shoot well, teach you more about how to shoot, and hold its resale value much better. Here's a couple in your price range, and with the competitive season (nearly)at an end for the year there will be even more good deals on the way:

http://www.benchrest.com/cgi-bin/cl...esults_format=long&db_id=8500&query=retrieval

http://www.benchrest.com/cgi-bin/cl...esults_format=long&db_id=8513&query=retrieval

This is just for fun, not competition.
Click to expand...

That's what everyone says at first. :)

In BR, they do not, but then they cost half of what the competition does.
Click to expand...

Let's say you shoot a couple of thousand rounds a year of 6BR (or similar). That's about $1/shot if you count consumables and barrel life, so $2K a year. In other words, the up-front cost of a rifle is rather quickly dwarfed by the ongoing costs of shooting it, so why not start with something that won't have to replaced later in the search for ultimate accuracy?

BTW, most of us started the same way you are planning to do, and ended up spending more than necessary by the time it was all over. Don't reinvent that wheel. :)

If there is a local BR event in your area, pay the shooters a visit. Very likely someone will give you a little trigger time, and you will see what the fanfare about custom actions/triggers/stocks/etc. is all about.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
Listen to what Toby is telling you. I went through a new Remington PSS and then bought a new Remington and paid to have a poor mans BR rifle made out of it. Then I finally built a BR rifle.
Butch
 
Some money spent is a fact of life. Buy a good used BR rifle and spend the additional money on new barrels. You don't need a rifle that won't deliver top accuracy. Never run in competition with a rifle that won't out shoot the shooter. A competitive rifle is as much a learning platform as anything else.

Figure on two barrels a year, when you buy components, buy enough at a time to shoot out two barrels, always buy from the same lot. You will be vary far ahead in any accuracy following these rules. Find a great gunsmith and stick with him for all your rifle work.


I do not know of a phase of competition that these same rules of shooting do not apply.
 
tobybradshaw said:
A used BR rifle will be more accurate than the Savage, easier to shoot well, teach you more about how to shoot, and hold its resale value much better. Here's a couple in your price range, and with the competitive season (nearly)at an end for the year there will be even more good deals on the way:

http://www.benchrest.com/cgi-bin/cl...esults_format=long&db_id=8500&query=retrieval

http://www.benchrest.com/cgi-bin/cl...esults_format=long&db_id=8513&query=retrieval



That's what everyone says at first. :)



Let's say you shoot a couple of thousand rounds a year of 6BR (or similar). That's about $1/shot if you count consumables and barrel life, so $2K a year. In other words, the up-front cost of a rifle is rather quickly dwarfed by the ongoing costs of shooting it, so why not start with something that won't have to replaced later in the search for ultimate accuracy?

BTW, most of us started the same way you are planning to do, and ended up spending more than necessary by the time it was all over. Don't reinvent that wheel. :)

If there is a local BR event in your area, pay the shooters a visit. Very likely someone will give you a little trigger time, and you will see what the fanfare about custom actions/triggers/stocks/etc. is all about.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
Click to expand...

Toby,

All your arguments for the used quality custom rifle make sense, and the resale is one reason I was looking at the Savage. They depreciate fast, and I can get a used one cheap. But, buying a used custom may be even better for the reasons stated, but also because depreciation may have largely bottomed out.

Still, the Savage, if purchased used, can almost assuredly outshoot me, and costs little and is a gentle step into the shooting game. If used, I would not loose much if I resold. Still I recognize the superiority of the custom guns. I have shot a NBRSA heavy gun in a match and also a light gun a few times for practice. The actions are very slick and the triggers outstanding. There are things I do not like about longer range benchrest (mainly, no feedback on shots), but do wish to shoot off the bench with pinpoint accuracy, and one of the BR rifles is clearly the best way to achieve that, whatever competition it may be used in (yes, I know I will be sucked into it, sooner or later).

The two links I have already explored, but I understand 6PPC to be time consuming and costly to load. At this juncture, I would just like to use the simpler 6mmBR. I guess I could have the 6PPC rechambered at a low cost for 6mmBR? The ads speak a language for equipment that I am still struggling to understand, making it difficult for me to fully appreciate how suitable it is for me.

I checked on www.6mmbr.com and picked one of their loads and the costs were not nearly as high per round as I thought. Please let me know if I have any of this wrong. These prices are from www.grafs.com, and should include shipping.

Lapua Brass: $69.59/100. Used 5 times before discarding.
CCI BR4 Primers: $42.99/1000.
Hodgdon H4895 Powder: $145.99/8 lbs. + $27 Hazmat and handling charges.
Hornandy A-Max 105 grain bullets: $20.99/100

This all calculates out to $0.48/shot. According to 6mmbr.com, the 6mmBR barrel can expect to last 2500 rounds with good accuracy. A barrel from Krieger is $280. I do not know the cost to chamber and crown, but I will call it $250. That is $0.21 a shot.

All total, about $0.69 a shot. Not cheap, if one practices a lot to be sure. And there is the cost of cleaning supplies, gas, tolls, entry fees, etc. I am aware of all of this.

I am willing to spend the dollars, now, for the right things. I am a firm believer in "cry once, buy once", not "buy twice and cry twice".

- Phil
 
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Big Al said:
Find a great gunsmith and stick with him for all your rifle work.
Click to expand...

This has been far harder to do than expected. Of course, I live in the San Francisco bay area, the anti-gun capital of the planet. Still, even using one remotely, I am not sure how to hook up with a well regarded gunsmith. There are many horror stories, mostly about incredibly long delays.

- Phil
 
Phil, I have loaded for no-turn .272 6BR and .262 tight-neck 6PPC. I wouldn't call either of them fussy about loads -- any of the published info will get you some small groups.

At 100-200yd the path of least resistance for max accuracy and competitive flexibility is still the 6PPC. It is an amazing cartridge. Turning a couple of dozen necks is either a PITA or a pleasant way to spend an evening, depending on your outlook. You can get some incredibly consistent neck tension by turning, even though I admit that the Lapua brass is very good right out of the box.

At 300yd a 6BR might be close to a 6PPC, with the advantage going one way or the other depending on the wind and your ability to read it. I'm putting together a 1-10 no-turn 6BR (for the BIB 95gr FB) for our local 300yd score matches, but I used to shoot a 6PPC in these matches and from experience I expect to have my head handed to me by the 6PPC shooters most of the time. :)

Most BR actions (at least those without ejectors) will pull a PPC case off a .473 boltface, so you always have the option of shooting either 6PPC or 6BR. You could rechamber a 6PPC to a 6BR but the typical 6PPC LV has a shorter barrel than you'd probably want for a 6BR.

Your per-shot cost estimate looks just a little low to me, because I would be spending about 30 cents apiece for handmade bullets, and I wouldn't really expect 2500 rounds of gilt-edged accuracy from a 6BR or 6PPC barrel -- more like 1500 (or even less). Both like to be shot fairly hot. The past-their-prime barrels can be set back, used for fire forming (6PPC, 30BR), or used for varmint shooting, so they still have some value.

And I hope that one day we will be able to buy CCI primers again. :)

Years ago I sold a guy in the Bay Area my old Borden-smithed Panda LV. It was his first BR rifle. I sent him some prepared brass, bullets, and load info. He shot a 0.104 @ 100yd on his first trip to the range -- by a considerable margin the smallest group of his life. Not a surprise to me -- this rifle shot a few groups in the zeros for me in registered competition, and many tiny, tiny groups in practice. I wish I still had it. :(

One of the great things about BR is that the state-of-the-art equipment is within reach of the average guy's budget. The smooth functioning and craftsmanship of a custom action/trigger/stock/barrel are worth the (relatively) small price premium to me.

But to each his own!

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
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You make a serious mistake when you thing that the Savage will surely be more accurate than you can shoot. If I put you behind a fully tuned Benchrest rig, on an easy day, and spent about 10 minutes coaching, you would be amazed just how good you are. You underestimate yourself. Equipment is huge. Typically, if conditions allow, the group would be in the mid twos.
 
Boyd Allen said:
You make a serious mistake when you thing that the Savage will surely be more accurate than you can shoot. If I put you behind a fully tuned Benchrest rig, on an easy day, and spent about 10 minutes coaching, you would be amazed just how good you are. You underestimate yourself. Equipment is huge. Typically, if conditions allow, the group would be in the mid twos.
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I am not going to argue a savage is more accurate than your shooting ability but I will tell you you will never shoot up to your full potential without the best equipment you can possibly lay your hands on.
 
Savage

Phil,
Who told you that loading for the PPC is harder than a BR or a 308 ?
You can already prepped brass,quality Match bullets use A Harrels Sizing die,a Wilson seater,a K&M or other quality primer seater and you do not have to do any more work to load ammo than you will with the BR.
This a list of the very same tools and componets that you end up using for the BR if you want to get the best performance.
I forget you will also ne4ed a good Powder Measure and it would be the same for a PPC or a BR.
Listen to the advice here,buy a used BR with acustm action Jewel trigger and save a lot of money,and Headaches.
My friends all went the REM 700 route,I bought the tooling and done all of the work and when we were done we really good shooting hunting guns,but now we all have several full BR rigs and shoot Comp,believe me you will be better servied with the BR rig.
Nick
 
Buy a good used BR rifle and have it rechambered or throated to .269 and just clean up the necks.

That BR gun will teach you how to shoot.

I speak from recent, first-hand experience.
 
nickloy said:
Phil,
Who told you that loading for the PPC is harder than a BR or a 308 ?
You can already prepped brass,quality Match bullets use A Harrels Sizing die,a Wilson seater,a K&M or other quality primer seater and you do not have to do any more work to load ammo than you will with the BR.
This a list of the very same tools and componets that you end up using for the BR if you want to get the best performance.
I forget you will also ne4ed a good Powder Measure and it would be the same for a PPC or a BR.
Listen to the advice here,buy a used BR with acustm action Jewel trigger and save a lot of money,and Headaches.
My friends all went the REM 700 route,I bought the tooling and done all of the work and when we were done we really good shooting hunting guns,but now we all have several full BR rigs and shoot Comp,believe me you will be better servied with the BR rig.
Nick
Click to expand...

Nick,

See http://www.6mmbr.com/6PPC.html. To my newbie eyes, this seemed like a lot of work. I don't doubt what you say...I am a novice and do not fully understand all the terminology and what is involved.

Regarding the recommendations to buy a dedicated BR rig, I don't disagree. I think more than anything, I may have learned I am just in the wrong forum for what I wish to do.

- Phil
 
Hi Phil, I understand where you are coming from - there are probably alot more like us. Not quite ready to dive into full BR, but wanting to find a rifle that will group well as we inch along getting better.

The BR guys I have met have been nothing but great in offering to help though. They have tons of information they have picked up and are more than willing to share... which is what they are doing in this thread. Sometimes it sounds like they are pushing you one way, but really they are hoping to keep you from making the mistakes they did.

As to right forum or not, I don't really think you are in the wrong one - this is the place you want to be. I have looked (for a while now) and this is as close to what you want (I think) as you can find. If you live near where one of the groups (Denton, Tomball, etc) meet for matches - do yourself a BIG Favor and visit these guys. It is a world of diffenece to sit and visit with them in person. Some day I might be able to have a BR level rifle and spend even more time - something that will not happen now, but I hope it will in the future.

Hope this helps a little and Good Luck.
 
Phil,

Before you do anything.....call Don Nielson, he's in California, a top notch gunsmith, a Short and Long Range BR shooter.

If you still want a savage....Mark that PM'd you on here. The rifle he's talking about would be a very good buy. I've seen it shoot... You'll have to ask Mark about the Weight.

Hovis
 
Phil3 said:
I am a novice and do not fully understand all the terminology and what is involved.
Click to expand...

No problem! Two routes to understanding and terminology:

1. Use the Search function on this forum.
2. If that doesn't give you the answer, just post your question.

Doing 1. first shows that you are willing to expend some of your own effort before asking others to expend theirs. :)

P.S. Read Boyd's post again. A really accurate rifle shortens your learning curve, because it gives you more reliable feedback on what you're doing right (or wrong).

P.P.S. Once in awhile you find a used BR rifle that comes with brass, dies, bullets, etc. This can save $$ and time.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
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