Brass prep questions from a newbie

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kenickie22

Member
Interested in hearing your brass prep regimen. On my last lot, I uniformed primer pockets, deburred primer holes with K&M tool, full length sized with Redding die and +0.010" competition shell holder, expanded necks with K&M expand iron, trimmed length, turned necks, inside chamfered with K&M tool, neck sized with Wilson die, and finally seated with a Wilson seater die. I'm ready for my fourth loading. I should add that this is Winchester 223 brass in a factory Remington 700 PSS. Is there ever a need to inside chamfer again? I haven't cleaned my cases other than wiping the necks with alcohol, so they're reading to be cleaned. Just got the stainless steel media to use in my Thumblers Tumbler, so will try it out this weekend. I have new Lapua brass that I want to try out, but want to make sure I'm doing everything right before I mess with it. My cases still chamber ok, so I haven't full length sized again yet. At what point will I want to start thinking about annealing? Anything you would do differently? Thanks!
 
Brass prep

Sounds like you've done everything you could do. What kind of accuracy are you getting? If you use the Lapua brass the case capacity may be different and I'd try it for accuracy before prepping it. All I do with Lapua brass is use a primer pocket uniformer to clean the primer pocket, neck size and trim to length. Since you are shooting a factory chamber you may not gain much from a lot of prep. - nhk
 
First, if you are shooting factory brass in a Remington 700 (or any factory gun) you don't need to neck turn brass, nor do you need to uniform primer pockets or deburr flash holes. On factory brass in a factory chamber just make sure the OAL of the brass does not exceed what is in your loading manual.

The only need to neck turn brass, as in the benchrest situation, is to reduce the necks to a diameter that will fit benchrest chamber necks which are normally much smaller than a factory chamber would be.
 
I've noticed that if I don't neck turn, I shoot my best groups with new brass, and that it goes downhill from there. I'm using a Wilson neck die on the second sizing, and am guessing that my accuracy issues come from neck thicknesses that aren't uniform. When my brass is brand new, I'm using a Redding full length die, so the expander is uniforming the inside of the neck. The outside of the neck isn't uniform, but this doesn't hurt my accuracy since I'm not neck sizing. When I neck size with the Wilson, I'm getting all my sizing from the outside the neck, so now the inside isn't round due the necks not being uniform. This is why I've been neck turning. Does this logic make sense?
 
2011-08-05_10-08-03_902.jpg
Here is my best 5 shot group at 100yds with this gun and brass setup (older model Remington 700 PSS in .223)...
26gr Varget - 52gr Sierra BTHP - Winchester brass

Definitely not a one hole group, but I'm very happy with it for a factory gun. Thinking about bedding he H-S stock to see if I can get any more out of it...
 
using an internal expander is hard on brass and accuracy. i would not be counting on the pull through expander to be uniforming anything. try the fl die without the expander.

winchester brass is ok but needs a big wieght sort as it can vary a lot.
a light clean up cut on the outside would be ok, but silly to do 100% as the clearance is just to big.

how many wind flags did you have out ?

mike in co
 
I've definitely noticed a huge weight difference in the Winchester brass. I've been sorting by 1gr. Out of 50pcs, I've got some at 92-92.9gr, 93-93.9gr, 94-94.9gr, and 95-95.9gr. The majority fall into the 93-94.9gr.

I did turn for full cleanup, mostly because I'm new to neck turning. I understand that it's probably isn't helping anything. When I did the neck turning, I did take out the expander on my FL die.

No wind flags (haven't made the investment yet, but know that I should) - just a lot of luck and a very calm evening. Was having terrible luck with IMR-4198 and decided to give Varget a try since it was in the measure anyway (had been playing with it in a 308). This was the first group I shot with it. I should add that this brass was brand new, and had not been neck turned. I had used the Redding FL die with the expander. I've shot similar but not quite as good groups since neck turning. I've noticed that my neck-turned brass does shoot much better on the 2nd/3rd loads than my non-neck turned brass.
 
kenickie22 said:
View attachment 11811
Here is my best 5 shot group at 100yds with this gun and brass setup (older model Remington 700 PSS in .223)...
26gr Varget - 52gr Sierra BTHP - Winchester brass

Definitely not a one hole group, but I'm very happy with it for a factory gun. Thinking about bedding he H-S stock to see if I can get any more out of it...
Click to expand...

Like mike says use some wind flags even though that group doesn't show wind error. The next step up in accuracy from that gun will probably be bullets. Hand made benchrest bullets or Berger will show more accuracy than say any other bullet labeled "match" (Nosler A-max, Sierra Match, etc). But any of these will be more accurate than run-of-the-mill hunting/varmint bullets.

Bedding? In a H-S stock that already has a bedding block in it, probably messing with the torque on the action screws will get it as accurate as can be expected even though skim bedding can't hurt.

Not bad for a factory gun though. Now shoot 5 5-shot groups in a row like that.

Edit- Don't forget using a good cleaning process after every few groups.
 
Jerry & Mike, what type of windflags would you recommend for somebody just getting started? We shoot groups at 100yds off sandbags (just got on the 11 month waiting list for thr SEB Neo rest) at our personal range. I just joined a club where they shoot score at 100, 200, & 300yds. I'm guessing you'd use a different amount of flags at the longer yardages? I haven't shot there yet but have been there to watch. Sometimes they don't use any flags all. When they shoot rimfire at 50yds, the entire field is covered in all kinds of different flags. I really don't know what to look for as far as reading flags, so I don't know what kind to get.
As for cleaning, I've been using shooters choice with a brass brush, then iosso on a patch wrapped around a 17 jag, then one of the iosso Eliminator brushes, then wet patches, and finally dry patches. This is usually done around 50 rounds. I do notice it shoots best when clean. Had the local gunsmith check it with a hawkeye borescope and he showed me that there is a burr running down one of the grooves. He said that this would cause it to get dirty quicker. FYI - I just had him cut the end of the barrel off and do an 11 degree target crown. The original crown looked pretty bad. Haven't been able to shoot it on a calm day, but it seems to be an improvement (maybe I'd be able to more in this windy Indiana fall weather if I had some windflags and knew how to use them!). Anything you guys would do different as far as cleaning?
 
try some of the new imr8208 with the match bullets.
i found br bullets would not reach my throat..so had to go back to production bulets and just sort them well.

i have to admit..i do not know who's flags i have.....no name on them....
single pane thremo plastic with tails on t bottom hollow posts with ss inner hieght adjuster...... to medium say 12 by 15 and one small say 5 by 8 all wiht tails. i have built my own large flag which is 24 by 15 or so with a 2" wide tail.

my original flags were fibreglass snow markers with surveyors tape...nothing else.
 
kenickie22 said:
Interested in hearing your brass prep regimen. On my last lot, I uniformed primer pockets, deburred primer holes with K&M tool, full length sized with Redding die and +0.010" competition shell holder, expanded necks with K&M expand iron, trimmed length, turned necks, inside chamfered with K&M tool, neck sized with Wilson die, and finally seated with a Wilson seater die. I'm ready for my fourth loading. I should add that this is Winchester 223 brass in a factory Remington 700 PSS. Is there ever a need to inside chamfer again? I haven't cleaned my cases other than wiping the necks with alcohol, so they're reading to be cleaned. Just got the stainless steel media to use in my Thumblers Tumbler, so will try it out this weekend. I have new Lapua brass that I want to try out, but want to make sure I'm doing everything right before I mess with it. My cases still chamber ok, so I haven't full length sized again yet. At what point will I want to start thinking about annealing? Anything you would do differently? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Full Length size each and every time you reload in .0005" to .001" increments and you won't overwork your brass. Half measures, are not the answer. NO need to go to all this trouble with a factory chamber, it's a big overkill. All your effort is best saved for a custom tight neck chamber where you have to perform these tasks. NO need to tumble either. Wipe off the necks, clean out the primer pocket with a primer pocket uniformer, reload, and go shoot. When you have a custom built 6PPC or 30BR built, then you can revisit all the work you're preforming above.
 
Ken, When sizing your brass how far are you moving your shoulder? .001", .002", .003"
Do you have a Stoney Point (Hornady or Sinclair) gage to put on your 6" dial caliper to check this?
Just a note. I only got 7 reloads out of my first Lapuua cases in a standard chamber.
Centerfire
 
Centerfire said:
Ken, When sizing your brass how far are you moving your shoulder? .001", .002", .003"
Do you have a Stoney Point (Hornady or Sinclair) gage to put on your 6" dial caliper to check this?
Just a note. I only got 7 reloads out of my first Lapuua cases in a standard chamber.
Centerfire
Click to expand...
I'm not Ken but I've never found moving the shoulder by a certain amount gives the best results. You can use the above mentioned gage to tell if you are moving it too much (say 0.004" or more).

In benchrest actions with benchrest barrels and in benchrest quality chambers I use the stripped bolt and go by feel. The bolt handle should just start to drag in the last few degrees of its stroke. After all, what can be a better gage of the brass fit than the chamber itself?
 
I don't use a gage, mainly out of ignorance. I just chamber an empty round, and if it chambers easily, call it good. I do have a Redding bump die, but haven't used it yet since my brass still chambers easily. Will look up the Sinclair's gage tomorrow.
Just tumbled 50 pieces of 223 and 50 pieces of 6mm Remington brass with stainless steel media in my Thumblers Tumbler with excellent results...
 
JerrySharrett said:
First, if you are shooting factory brass in a Remington 700 (or any factory gun) you don't need to neck turn brass, nor do you need to uniform primer pockets or deburr flash holes. On factory brass in a factory chamber just make sure the OAL of the brass does not exceed what is in your loading manual.

The only need to neck turn brass, as in the benchrest situation, is to reduce the necks to a diameter that will fit benchrest chamber necks which are normally much smaller than a factory chamber would be.
Click to expand...

noob here
I have read that for factory, it helps a bit to turn 180-200 degrees. anything more doesn't help, less can leave thicker spots.
 
In the case where the factory reamer leaves the neck diameter so much larger than the loaded case, the idea is that neck turning isn't required to be able to insert the cartridge and you expect the neck to expand a few thousandths above the bullet diameter after firing as well. So, it clearly isn't useful towards loading functions, but it has some purpose with respect to keeping some controls on your sizing process as well as reducing the runout variations.

If you pick a neck size bushing for your process, keeping all your brass at a certain thickness allows you to use the same neck sizing process regardless of which brand of brass you are running. For example, say you turn everything to a thickness of 0.0125" and cull the ones that leave large zones that don't clean up. Then you will have the same neck bushing and spot the ones with large case wall variations at the same time.
 
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