Berger Doing More to Support Short Range BR

Eric Stecker

New member
I am a product of short range BR shooting. My first job with Walt was as the range master for the matches held at Ben Avery in Phoenix, AZ. It was a few years later when I started working in the shed in Walt's back yard making bullets. Within a year after that I had a Stolle action, Six stock and Hart barreled BR rifle and gave up my job as range master to become an active shooter. The history between then and now has led to my recent change to the position of President of Berger Bullets. Having been blessed with this good fortune is compelling me/allowing me to pursue some deliberate efforts about which I feel strongly.

In recent months, Berger has decided to do whatever it can to support and grow short range BR. I personally believe that short range BR group shooting is at the heart of BR competition. I know there are many other types of BR shooting but I believe that if we can make short range BR stronger, then the other BR areas will gain in strength as well. To this end I wanted to relay what we are doing now and to announce a few changes that we are making today to further this effort.

As many of you already know, Berger has assumed control of the Arizona Benchrest Shooters club which runs the group shooting BR matches at the Ben Avery Range. We are pleased that last month we ran our first match since 2000. Based on the feedback we received during and after the match I believe we are heading in the right direction with running a well organized match with various efforts toward enhancing shooter comforts. This effort will continue as planned with our next match being the Sporter - Unlimited 5 shot second half of the Arizona State Championships held on Nov 8th and 9th. I hope to see you there.

A few months ago, we partnered with a professional software company with a deliberate plan to produce updated and upgraded match operation software. We are early in this process but I am encouraged by the progress. The plan will involve a few deliberate steps. The first of which is to produce a software that operates properly and easily for match directors. The second step is to integrate this software with an NBRSA database. The software will be set up to download match results into the NBRSA website so that all match results can be posted and reviewed quickly. This will also include a means through which individual shooters can track their scores over their BR career. There are other features and adaptations being discussed but the good news is that Berger will move this project forward as quickly as we can with no cost to the match operators, affiliated clubs or NBRSA.

The final phase of this project is to produce a system that will measure targets consistently from range to range using an optical system. Ultimately this optical system will feed the scores into the software for quick, easy and uniform scoring. This is a tall task that will require a lot of cooperation between several match directors to ensure that it functions properly. We will continue to pursue this effort until we are successful or it is clearly determined that it is an impossible task (which I seriously doubt it is). If we are successful, Berger will be providing these measuring systems over time to all NBRSA affiliated and active clubs at no cost.

Lastly, it is my opinion that part of Berger being actively involved in strengthening BR means providing products that the BR community can use successfully. We spent considerable effort and time developing the BR Column bullet. This is one BR bullet we make among several others that are being shot today. We also produce the J4 precision jacket that has been a staple in the BR community for decades.

In a deliberate effort to further support BR shooting I am pleased to announce that we are making a change to the pricing of the J4 jackets most commonly used in short range BR. My recent position change has given me the authority to adjust the pricing of specific jackets to levels that are more consistent with historical norms as part of our effort to support short range BR competition. The jackets that will have price changes effective immediately are:

22 cal .705 long - New Price = $0.0623 each or $161.98 per bucket of 2,600
6mm .790 long - New Price = $0.0736 each or $147.20 per bucket of 2,000
6mm .825 long - New Price = $0.0739 each or $133.02 per bucket of 1,800
30 cal .925 long - New Price = $0.1218 each or $133.98 per bucket of 1,100
30 cal 1.000 long - New Price = $0.1223 each or $122.30 per bucket of 1,000

For all active jacket back order as of today (10-20-14) the prices have already been changed for these jackets. The price for all J4 jackets not listed above will remain the same until the end of the year at which point the cost for the jackets not listed above will be going up 3%.

It is my sincere hope that short range BR starts to turn away from its path toward decline. These are the things that we will be doing to help reverse this trend.

To clarify why we are doing this, if Berger were to obtain ALL of the business from the BR community it would produce an amount of sales that would be less than 2% of our total revenue. My reason for doing this is simple and it is not about making money (clearly). In a way, I regard myself as alumni of the school of short range BR competition. This is the school I attended as a young adult. It taught me many things that have helped me and Berger be successful. I believe it is right and necessary to give back to the group that gave me so much. Also, at Berger's core we are a benchrest bullet company. I intend to stay identified strongly with this core. We make many different bullets but they are all made the same way. The BR way, Walt's way. By doing these things I am not only able to give back to the group that gave me so much, I am also honoring our roots and Walt Berger's passion and commitment to BR shooting.

If we are successful, at the very least, those who enjoy BR will have a better experience. At best we may even be able to get a few more shooters excited about BR shooting and build our numbers back to much healthier levels.

Regards,
Eric
 
Good Move. Thanks,

What about prices on the 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm jackets commonly used in Long Range Benchrest?

Joe
 
Previous Pricing

What was the previous pricing, just before the price decrease on all these jackets. I only ask because I didn't order any jackets within the last year due to availability. Also, does the lower pricing come with availability? When BR is only 2% of your business, does it's importance carry any weight?

Michael
 
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Kudos to you, Eric. Congrats on the new position at the helm of the company and many thanks for your efforts. The software package will go a long ways toward standardizing the game, but will be very difficult to hone to a level that will make it acceptable at all venues. I think it is quite possible and I also believe, with your enthusiasm and backing, it will happen.
 
What was the previous pricing, just before the price decrease on all these jackets. I only ask because I didn't order any jackets within the last year due to availability. Also, does the lower pricing come with availability? When BR is only 2% of your business, does it's importance carry any weight?
Got this from Bruno's web site: .790/ 295.92
.825/ 267.30
I agree the price drop looks great but what can of lead time are you looking at. And if you can't get price doesn't matter. Tony
 
Need More Info

Thanks Tony, but I really want to know the previous pricing from Berger on all five of the jackets he listed. I also want to know if this is going to have any effect on the Berger bullet pricing. The Berger bullets that are made on these five jackets. I have a lot on my mind right now concerning all the new pricing. I'm sure a lot of other custom bullet makers have a lot of questions also. Custom bullet makers make a very low hourly rate, and some of us (like me) are sitting on a fairly large number of jackets that we paid over twice this much for. I will probably have to sell bullets for a zero profit for 6 -12 months. I guess that gives the term "labor of love" a whole new meaning, like "labor of anger". Not trying to be negative, just being honest. I have a lot more to say on this subject.

Michael
 
Joe,

Regarding the jacket pricing, this change is specific to those jackets that are used in short range BR. I won't go into the details regarding internal discussions but the change in my authority on this situation is not absolute. Selling jackets is not a priority to the extent that it would make some in our organization happy if we didn't offer them at all. Our ongoing success and my personal interest in Berger staying strongly connected to our roots was key in getting this concession allowed essentially giving me the rope to haul this into a good situation or hang myself.

I do believe that if we are able to affect short range BR in a positive way that this will help make things better in the other types of BR shooting. I can only take this situation one step at a time and these are the first step.

Michael,

Attached is the J4 price sheet for 2014. With the exception of these 5 jackets all the prices listed will be in affect until the end of the year. On Jan 1st, 2015, jacket prices will go up 3% with the exception of these 5 specific jackets. The price for these jackets will remain as they are listed in this thread through 2015.

Regarding availability, these jacket represent our core connection to short range BR. We will make sure that they are produced often enough through the year to stay ahead of demand. We have been doing a much better job lately. It is also important to keep in mind that the firearms industry is on the backside of the greatest demand surge in our history. For nearly a year we received orders at a rate that averaged roughly 5 times our max capacity. Making anything available to all those who wanted them during this time was impossible.

In recent months the demand has come back down to normal levels so our ability to get these and all our products out the door is getting better every day. Something people on this forum may not know is that we are still adding machines to our production line even though demand has fallen. We believe there is a new normal and we will continue to add capacity to prepare for when this new normal becomes a surge on demand again.

Reed,

Thank you for your kind words. Having worked closely with Walt and being directly involved in BR I know that the software project has challenges beyond writing code. Our plan is to take this in steps so that it can be reviewed and adjusted and improved until it is what everyone wants to use. The key word in that sentence is "wants". We are not seeking to force anything on anyone. This system will be allowed for NBRSA competitions on its merits or we will keep working on it.

The good news is that we have the resources and horsepower to stay with the project. This is very important. As long as we are willing and able to make the adjustments needed to get us there and everyone is willing to work together it is only a matter of time until it is sorted. I'm not going anywhere so time I've got. If we can keep the doors open the resources should be there also.

Regards,
Eric
 

Attachments

  • Price List for J4 Jackets 2014.pdf
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Michael,

We are not affecting the price of our BR bullets or any of those made by these jackets. The price we pay for the jackets doesn't change so there is no impact on our bullet pricing.

Regards,
Eric
 
Eric

Not to start a war, but NBRSA is not the only dog in town or the biggest.

IF you are going to build range operation software, do not go half way. Why not try to tie it into the IBS also. Make it have two sides and let it support both NBRSA and IBS matches.

I am sure the IBS clubs could arrange beta testers and technical experts to ensure workability and compatability.

IF you really want to go all in, build the LR modules in it also and have one all encompassing BR range operation software. :)

Anyway, just a thought and cuddos for what you are doing to grow the sport.

BTW, I would bet most would approve "pop up ads" for Berger bullets on it also.
 
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That's good news

Michael,

We are not affecting the price of our BR bullets or any of those made by these jackets. The price we pay for the jackets doesn't change so there is no impact on our bullet pricing.

Regards,
Eric

At least the custom bullet makers can still sell custom bullets at a higher price than Berger's, since they are hand swaged, and allow a greater variety of combinations in weight and ogives. Many shooter have refined their skills with a particular custom bullet. Maybe this will actually give custom bullet makers a chance to increase their profits a little. I realize that the buyers may not agree with this, but custom bullet makers work very hard for as little as $10 per hour, and it's time for them to get a raise without the price of the bullets going up.

Michael
 
Sorry, but this just rubs me the wrong way. Price gouge for years on end, with no competition. When J4 was the only game in town, we couldn't get them reliably anyway. Shooters have been dropping out of the game at an alarming rate. Ya' think it might have been because they couldn't get any bullets? Now, a real competitor introduces to the market, and Berger suddenly develops a conscience. I don't know about everyone else, but the Jackets I've been getting from Sta-Moly put the best J4's Ive ever had to shame. I'll steer clear of this ploy...
 
Eric

Are the J4 jackets made in the California plant? If so, will they continue to be made there at the new 50% off price level? If so, will the gilding material quality and concentricity be compromised? Is the current zinc level above 5%? Would it go even higher? I don't mean to come across in a negative way, or be the bad guy here, but I'm just asking the questions that some people are wondering, but not certain whether to ask or not. As I've gotten older, and hopefully wiser, I've become a little more blunt.

Michael
 
Sorry, but this just rubs me the wrong way. Price gouge for years on end, with no competition. When J4 was the only game in town, we couldn't get them reliably anyway. Shooters have been dropping out of the game at an alarming rate. Ya' think it might have been because they couldn't get any bullets? Now, a real competitor introduces to the market, and Berger suddenly develops a conscience. I don't know about everyone else, but the Jackets I've been getting from Sta-Moly put the best J4's Ive ever had to shame. I'll steer clear of this ploy...

Me Too!
 
actually both of your are quite humorous.
BUSINESS RUN ON A PROFIT.
no one ever forced any of you to buy j4 jackets..it was your choice.
you are adults, i assume. you made the decision ...no one twisted your arm.
but when some competition comes along and j4 prices come down...you then claim you were being taken advantage of.
you make me laugh.

It seems you haven't followed all that has lead up to this point. Yes, shooters and bullet makers WERE forced to buy J4 jackets at inflated prices...or get out. The prices had been going up, up, up..with little or no concern...more like disdain, for custom bullet makers. There was very poor availability at all, at any price. But along comes some competition, and with the swipe of a pen, jackets are available at half the price.
I can see both sides, but I think Berger damaged their image with the br crowd due to their previous policies regarding jackets. They had virtually all of the custom bullet jacket business and muscled makers into paying exorbitant prices...when and if Berger decided to part with their new shiny pieces of "gold".
While the br market is a small one, I applaud Eric for doing this and hope it will be a good thing for the game and for it's participants. I don't see a downside from that perspective. I would hate to have bought a huge inventory at the higher price, though. I also think that it may have been about more than just jackets, but possibly a new bullet supplier that may be able to compete with Berger, being on the horizon. Purely speculative on my part, but it seems quite possible once quality jackets were made available elsewhere.
 
Mike, I see a couple of downsides to this deal.
First, if J4 is making a profit of 1/3 (approx) on their jackets, then they are really hammering everybody else by not reducing the price on other jackets and indeed, announcing a 3 percent increase on the rest of the line the first of the year.

Second, If they are taking a large loss by cutting the price of short range benchrest jackets by 1/3 (approx), and this amounts to less than 2% of their business, it would appear they are attempting to put their new competition back out of business. I would certainly hope this is not the case but.

I think we need to continue to support those who have stepped up to the plate to fill the void recently. And, they do have excellent products.

Joe
 
actually both of your are quite humorous.
BUSINESS RUN ON A PROFIT.
no one ever forced any of you to buy j4 jackets..it was your choice.
you are adults, i assume. you made the decision ...no one twisted your arm.
but when some competition comes along and j4 prices come down...you then claim you were being taken advantage of.
you make me laugh.

I'm glad you got a laugh because it is obvious you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No one begrudged them making a profit but gouging is a different thing and I don't think it is coincidence that they are cutting the price on the jackets that the competition is making while raising the rest. I refuse to be gouged and I won't do business with someone who screws you when he has you over a barrel and as soon as the product is available they want to drop the price and act like they are doing you a favor, I won't buy anything from Berger because of it.They hurt a lot of bulletmakers and shooters with their crap and I hope it bites them in the butt.
 
Mike, I see a couple of downsides to this deal.
First, if J4 is making a profit of 1/3 (approx) on their jackets, then they are really hammering everybody else by not reducing the price on other jackets and indeed, announcing a 3 percent increase on the rest of the line the first of the year.

Second, If they are taking a large loss by cutting the price of short range benchrest jackets by 1/3 (approx), and this amounts to less than 2% of their business, it would appear they are attempting to put their new competition back out of business. I would certainly hope this is not the case but.

I think we need to continue to support those who have stepped up to the plate to fill the void recently. And, they do have excellent products.

Joe

Joe, I don't disagree. That's why I used the words " from that perspective", carefully in my post. If they succeed in eliminating their new competition, it won't be good for anybody but Berger. As I'm sure you understand in business though, there are benefits to low overhead and niche markets. Ideally, I think we can all agree that if the makers can survive and be successful, the shooting community will benefit. Nobody wants to see the big bad wolf eat little red riding hood...except the wolf. I think that if the new competition has the capital, expanding into making bullets makes sense to up their sales and margins. I assume that's what Berger was protecting by keeping jackets for their own use instead of selling them to competing custom bullet makers. With availability and lower prices, the markets should grow for both companies from what use to be "normal". We're a small portion of Berger's business but with expanded sales from better supply and pricing, Berger may not realize much, if any loss and the small guy can keep going. Now that we have another quality jacket supplier, the only way to completely consume them would be if Berger can convince the br crowd that their product is superior. I would like to see our new jacket maker venture into boutique bullets...They may well see it differently and have other plans, but it seems to make sense. I haven't bought any of the new maker's jackets. Are they currently priced near Berger's new pricing? If so, it makes even more sense. If they have to cut their margins, the logical thing to do would be to offer complete bullets, I would think, to make up for it. Yes, I see this as a likely power play, but if both can succeed in their respective areas, I think we all benefit. Just my thoughts and I don't disagree with your points. I see opportunity here, believe it or not. If the new makers have to cut margins to an unacceptable level, and can't replace those dollars...forget everything I said and sell everything.:(
 
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