Benchrest and Low Scores

C

cris

Guest
The Western Regional Championships were a huge success, so congratulations to Wayne Burns and his team.

It appears they tried a new target for USA Open Class at 50 yards. As I understand this target, the "scoring" ring is larger and some shots can easily score a zero. Well, zeroes were coming at a 50% clip and scoring this new target was not as easy as advertised. One shooter, the target's inventor, did not even shoot the second target.

I needed a good laugh this morning and this was perfect. I should explain this. Seeing the winning score was a bit of a shock. It might take some getting used to.
 
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Super job Wayne keep up the good work. Congratulations to you and your crew.

As for the new target seems they worked out great. 50% hits are the mean and LD had only 20% ? Didn't he state this would be a easier target? This means on a pro rated target at 25 yds the best score would have been 125 or under. You guys historically shoot MUCH better than that.

Shooting history dictates no matter what the disipline a smaller target always produces not only higher scores but better shooters. The larger target only makes you feel good. It does not begin to increase your skill level in fact it lowers it. The match results clearly show the accuracy factor even with the enlarged target was way off the norm further supporting my smaller target statement.

If you are going to keep enlarging the target for whatever reason you are destroying the spirit of this sport.
The goal of benchrest gentlemen is to produce better shooters not accomidate those less skilled.

What you really need to be doing is shooting at a .125 spot at 50 yds. or a international 50 yd target. This would produce much better rifles, tuners and shooters when competing against the real world.

Just a thought but if you persist in the decline of our sport a simple solution might be to enlarge the target even more say out to the 7 ring or even the 6 perhaps to get those percentages up and y'all feeling better.

Frank
 
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What Shadowalker said +1 more is it PC S#!+ trying to make it Fair for Someone like Myself to Compeat with the 250 Guys, that's Bull crap,Let us Shoot Hard Target's and All Shoot Better because of it Just My 2 cent's..Franky
 
Well, you are not really correct, but that rarely stops you. It was really a very simple and fast target to score.

And yes, I did shoot poorly, but, unlike you, I shoot enough actual matches shoulder to shoulder with others that sometimes I shoot well, and sometimes I shoot poorly. I won't "shock" you with details, but suffice to say I was trying to shoot too many different events the same weekend and got the schedules and equipment organizing botched up some. It was a nearly 2,000 mile trip, and I packed camping gear, clothes, food, and equipment in a bit of a hurry ... leaving flags and drummer's throne on the garage workbench .... but of course we all know about traveling to distant matches where five different kinds of events are to be fired the same weekend, wot?


Thinking about you and your buddy "Frank" brings this to mind ..... HOW many matches have you actually fired this year? I mean, of course, matches with more than one other competitor in your class? I KNOW you and he didn't make the Worlds match, but since I haven't seen ANY match results from you EVER, I'm wondering how much you guys DO shoot in actual outdoor matches where OTHER shooters are competing alongside?

Perhaps you might come to the next big match out West, which is Nov. 5th in Phoenix Az.? Likely there will be only around 40 competitors of so, but still .... I bet it would be the largest AIRGUN event you have been to yet?
 
Let me start with a quote, so I get things right. "It was really a very simple and fast target to score."

I received a first hand report that, once again, differs with your opinion but that has not stopped you, either.

Also, I purposely did not mention scores, everyone shoots poorly from time to time. Usually, they do not have a list of excuses already rehearsed.

Since you brought up the matter of experience, no match results with my name. My shooting club is not sanctioned, just like Temecula, and posting results from "rogue" benchrest matches has no interest for me. I will not speak for Frank Tirrell but, once again, you have not looked very hard, most people can find his name at Texarkana, which is sanctioned, inside of 10 seconds. This whole topic is difficult for me to understand since, coming from you, benchrest is a "backwater sport", you do remember that one, don't you?

No plans to go to Arizona. Another big match for this "backwater sport". 40 competitors will be another huge success for the organizers. If you go, did you learn anything from the range officers in South Carolina about the rules?

Lastly, since you banned me from your "other" forum for no good reason and without any recourse, when should I expect a refund of my $10.00 for access to your "secret" section. It was interesting that your answer, to the very same question, was quite different there than what you posted on the Yellow forum. By the way, when you took the money, you never mentioned an expiration date. This time, deleting my post is not an option.
 
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Hi there LD, I would not responded to this nonsence if my name was not mentioned but you did so here I am.

Can we get real here for a minute...........Harold Vaughn who you probably do not know of never shot a match in his life yet wrote the greatest book on rifle accuracy sense the great Dr. Mann if you know who he is. I do not believe even the good Doctor even shot a match recalling his book. Leanonardo Di Vinci never had a single art lesson yet is regarded as one of the greatest artist the world has ever produced.
Point being just because Mr. Chris has no scores posted does not mean he cannot or does not shoot. You best hope that you do not shoot against him. He has a real super gun and just from seeing his targets and X counts I will predict he is going to whoop yo a$$ with one of your own guns. Of course he had to change everything but the paint to get it shooting but we shall overlook that small issue........................another thing, you are not shooting what we could call real good looking at your scores. Calling people out here will most likley get
you instant results. Might I suggest a bit of caution........ This is not the Yellow forum.
The excuses you keep coming up with when you lose get better with every match. We look so foward to your every excuses every time you shoot. It's the running joke.
Just a thought but you might just concider turning them into book form and selling the little gems out of the Bat Cave for another $ 10.00
One would think that the professional you claim to be after all these years of shooting would at least know how to prepare for a match and not bore us with
your whining, the violins.... and wine in the background.

Have you ever noticed Sir that all great shooters when they lose remain quiet, blame no one but them selves, take their lumps and congratulate the winner.

Frank
 
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"Rogue Benchrest" matches? Though I realize that you are yourself the "President" of a shooting organization, but to me, it just seems SO unseemly for so-called "officials" to be going out of the way to single out little "rogue guys" as not good enough for "your game". I kindof like to see you posting your true feelings like this, since it shows your measure. I'm truly not sure WHY your boss/founder continues to attempt to post to me, since I told him over a year ago I was no longer communicating with him, but he too continues to spew venom that gives us a glimpse of a seamy underside.

As to your ten bucks, well, when you joined that club, it was with the understanding that you knew it was a club of airgun friends, and that it would be your responsibility to contribute. There was a notice I'm sure you read about how to get your membership fee back, but if you really feel you deserve a refund, post your home address here, and I'll see what can be done.
 
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I'm a bit surprised you are piling on with no true knowledge of the target being discussed. Hard targets? The target in question uses a 0.500" black dot. To score the max, which is two points per shot, a pellet must be completely within that dot, without cutting its edge. Per common practice, we are using a .22 caliber scoring plug, which is, I believe, 0.223". So, IF a hole is just BARELY within, it would EASILY cut the regular ten ring of the regular international 25M airgun benchrest target, which is really 2mm (though I have repeately read it to be only .060" thou)!

BUT ....
we intend to use this target at fifty yards!


So, WHY do you feel need to start saying "bull crap", and thinking you want HARDER targets than this, when its ACTUALLY slightly more difficult than the current 25M target, EVEN were it (our one) to be used at only 25 meters!

We have been shooting 50 yard airgun BR matches every month for over two years, and we know whats hard and whats not, and more importantly, we know we want to try new things once in awhile.
 
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We, obviously, need to clear up one point.

Benchrest matches held at private clubs and ranges with local members using established targets and rules are the cornerstone of this sport. These clubs and ranges are private so that divisive personalities will go someplace else. This goes on all across this country and we are fortunate to have these people willing to organize these matches.

The term "rogue" was not intended to judge, you were the only one that came up with "not good enough". It was to simply identify those people that choose to make up their own targets and rules. This is not meant to "single" out anyone. These people have every right to play any game they can put together. It is only to separate our game from theirs, without judgement. Shooters have a right to know this beforehand and make their own choice. Our organization does not need "so-called "officials" to point this out, only the shooters.

As for my "measure" and the "seamy underside", once again, the pot calling the kettle black.

On your "other" forum, you post with contempt, you ask for money to access a "secret" section that is worthless and then, stand behind a set of senseless rules you created. If a "responsibility to contribute" is required, you should have been the first to go. You were clear that I was not welcome and I will not post again. No hard feelings.

Then, on the Yellow forum, your posts sound like they come from someone gagging on political correctness. Even your list of excuses was different there than what you posted here. You must not want to be banned, then what would your "fan club" think?

As for my refund, please keep it as a contribution to find some means to be better organized for your next match.
 
Wrong again LD........Wrong again...........you just have to start working on getting things right.

I am not Steves boss. In fact we do not have any bosses. Did you not get that from Steves post? It's run by our shooters. You got to stop this constant whining and concentrate more.

.#1 As for the boss thingy he simply would not allow it cause I am from Texas ( I think he secretly hates Texans and knows we are armed)
#2 He is a bunch smarter than me.

Come on LD I too noticed you did not tell Steve you WOULD give his money back......you were a bit wishy washy on the subject. You just said you would SEE what could be done about it........are you not the CEO of the famed Bat Cave?......... Let's make an excutive decision here LD, Do the right thing so to speak, get a bit of creditability going, "Man up" as judge Joe Brown advocates and wow us all.

By the way I have a couple of other guys that want their money back on the Bat Cave experience that netted them nothing. Want me to have them contact you also?
 
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Saying "right" simply shows this exchange is over and I, for one, am overjoyed about that.

I do want to go back to another of your comments.

"We don't have a bunch a little old ladies in the clubhouse plugging targets while we shoot the next relay, no printers, computers, or even a "clubhouse"."

Was this your description of the Western Regional venue or some other range you have visited? Now, maybe your reference to "little old ladies" is another slap at the good gentlemen who volunteer to score targets at matches and deserve nothing but our thanks. Could this be a show of your measure?
 
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Ladies scoring? Actually,

It was in reference to the World's event that you were so all about. Since you didn't bother attending, I guess you wouldn't know. It's pretty common for large shooting matches to hire or otherwise obtain the series of volunteers to do much of the scoring and/or tabulation, and I've seen it at the several National Championship matches I have competed in, as well both World Championship ones. I too rely on volunteers, but they are the competitors themselves. Its SO strange you would even fail to notice the comment about ladies plugging was made well prior to the Western Regionals. But anyhow .... for SURE I don't demean ANY scorers, paid or otherwise, but I just don't want to rely on our own competitors HAVING to work harder IF the job can be simplified..

Looks, here's what I'm seeing. You are the one that has continued to bring up the new target thing, and it is pretty obvious you use it as a springboard to bring up, or rehash a myriad of unrelated things you don't like about me, and others out here in the west. So why not just get it out? Just say you hate me, and whoever else, and be done with it? Why try to justify it at all? You really don't NEED a really good reason (nor do I think you have one), but its clear from the getgo we were never going to hit it off, so big deal!

To me, its a bit sad that folks will be trying to rely on you for some sort of consistent and fair leadership in the group you are president of, but I've decided to treat you like your cohort and association founder instead. So this will be my last post to you.

But I know with your talent for it, you will be able to find others to try to demonize, since you do seem bent on it.
 
Hate is a very strong word. I don't hate spinach, I don't hate Texans and I don't hate you.

I am all for a truce, I will even put the white flag up. None of this has anything to do with your new target. I have made my own target, too.

The problem, as I see it, is you cannot recognize that others may have a different opinion than yours. When someone does challenge your opinion, you believe they are "piling on". Then, when you feel backed into a corner, you start with the cheap shots and insults, it was not, lovely young ladies, rather it was "little old ladies". Now, you are attempting to personalize this exchange with, "try to demonize".

In your words, look, here it is, I respect that you know more about air guns than any three people I know but I can have a different opinion than you do, anyone can. It is not a debate, an argument or a confrontation, only a difference of opinion. Now, on your forum, you can act any way you like and simply ban anyone that does not get in line. On this forum and others like it, that will not work. If you use language that is demeaning and insulting, it will come back at you.

Your last post to me is history, such is life. I will not make that same promise. I did not drink the Kool-Aid.

P.S.

Thought I would add a postscript this morning to finish this off. Just some of the greatest hits:

A Rapid clone, made and tuned in the USA by exceptional craftsmen and shot by more than one Team USA member with great success at the World Championships, dubbed a "copycat".

Shooters that made room on Team USA for others with lower qualifying scores to participate, "Armchair pundits that deep down prolly knew they didn't have what it takes to man up".

And, to top the list, a response to the World Champion, "Enjoy your Championship, sport".

My final point. None of this was about a new target. This was not to meant pick on, pile on or demonize. The quotes show that these were not slips of the tongue or isolated incidents and the list could go on. I guess I am tired of bullies and behavior that would never happen nose to nose.
 
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I am tired of this mess.

I have been on benchrest central for years and cannot recall this kind of discussion and insults ever being posted. I agree with the majority of shooters here and need to point out some very apparent facts.

1- We NEVER had any problems on this web sight untill you showed up...................not once

2- You get caustic when challanged not only on this websight but even the Yellow resulting in loss of subject matter and you immediatly enter into personal attacks.

3- You hated benchrest 2 years ago and now you are an authority?

4- Any reasonable person reading your continued slanderous posts on both forums can figure out this problem......... and it is you Sir.

You know nothing about benchrest or you would have prevailed at the world cup and would be killing them at the matches........this simply ain't happening Larry. Tim could not even quallify for the world cup team with his own/your designed gun. Couple that with the disasterous showing at the world cup and he is making them for customers as super guns?............ Not running your gun down but just match proven obvious facts.
Get in touch with reality. Go make a better mousetrap and then come to us with your prize. We will welcome you with open arms.

This webpage is about Precision Shooting and how to acheive same. Please let us keep it that way unpolluted and on subject, not entertaining your ongoing litany of excuses, accusations and lack of acumen ie: little ole ladies, your gun problems, bad conditions at Little Rock, target size, piling on, accusing World ChampionTod Banks and others of cheating, ignorance of established facts and methods and voicing your dislike for people that challange you and your unsupported statements. You claim to be a professional. It is time for you to act like one.

Please do us all a favor take your home spun type of BS and go home.

Please know I am defending no one I am simply defending the SPORT. You do nothing to enhance, elevate or promote it with your continued insane reteric.

You are not welcome here.

Frank Tirrell
 
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Frank,
Who are you to say who is welcome and who is not?
Cris, started this thread to pick a fight with LD. That is very clear. I'm the one who decided to test the 50 yard target at our Western States match. A test is all anyone has talked about doing with that target. You and Cris act like we are trying to change what you are doing with your games and the USA rules. What's up with that?

You say it's all about the Shooters, but the shooters and clubs that are signed up with you have no vote is what is done. Cris has made that clear many times here. He makes the decisions with back room help from you Frank... and maybe a few other favorites.

It is quite clear that the Majority of the clubs and shooters wanted the weight limit on "open class" to be the same as HV class, since a lot of the rigs were turned down from 30+fpe, and fit that weight limit. We wanted "unlimited class" to be for those heavier rigs... but YOU and a very few others, over rode us all! Don't give me that crap about it being all about what the shooters want.. let us clubs vote, and settle matters fairly... or quick acting like this is a Democracy.

Wayne Burns, (my real name, what is your's Cris?)
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Wayne,

First, no one needs to pick a fight with Larry, he does that quite well, all by himself. All you have to do is read the small sample of snide remarks and insults that were quoted.

Once again, if clubs/ranges want to shoot different targets, as in San Diego, it is fine. There has been a great deal of work being done on targets so that electronic scoring can be made into a more viable option for those hosting matches.

This organization is about the shooters, nothing more I can do to make that point clear. You mentioned several things that you are unhappy about, so let me address those items.

US Open class has a weight limit that is different than you wanted and you want club/ranges to have a vote.

From my perspective, the majority did NOT want a 15 pound weight limit to match the HV class. You are unhappy with where the weight was finally negotiated to be. Others are unhappy that it is not heavy enough. Sounds like another case where it is impossible to make everyone happy. These new classes were a collaboration of the shooters' opinions by phone and email and a group of very experienced benchrest shooters that were asked to help make these decisions. Sorry you feel that these were "maybe a few other favorites." To be specific, there were 6 gentlemen in that group, 2 were Team USA members and the other 4 shot great scores in the qualifying but did not travel. 2 were from the West, 2 from the Central and 2 from the East.

Clubs and ranges should vote on rules is one way of being democratic. So, each club/range gets a vote, how does anyone know the vote is simply not the match director's opinion? Do big clubs/ranges get multiple votes due to their larger membership ranks? How about a Board of Directors with voters that do not represent the rank and file, another "good old boys" club? Nevertheless, your point is well taken, we need to find a more structured method of getting the shooters' opinions on rules.

Last, if you are this unhappy with our organization and you speak for all the shooters at Ashland, we can remove your sanctioning at your request. If you are really ambitious, we can make you the head of the organization, there really is no title since all you do is update the website and take crap from disgruntled shooters or better yet, since this organization is so flawed, start your own organization, write your own rules, use your new target and do a better job than we ever could. Sounds like a plan to me.

Steve George
US Air Rifle Benchrest
 
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Steve,

Thanks for using your real name.
I can really understand your feelings of frustration and possibly a feeling of "doing all the work and not getting thanked for it". I heard a story about you and a few other folks working hard at the last min. to form an organization that could gather a team to play with the world BR organization. I would like to thank you for that.

But, now is the time to hold elections for a board of governors and sanction clubs. Clubs should have to meet standards of quality facilities, regular shoots with at least three or four shooters, (less than four should not qualify for a "sanctioned" match) and have votes of their members to form a vote for the club. As match director of our club, I do not make decisions on my own. I have always talked issues over with our members. I'm on the AAFTAs' pistol rules committee, as we are creating a set of rules for the AAFTA pistol field target game... with lots of feedback from our local clubs...

I still hear in your comments that "we want to use this target for the USA 50 yard game". Again that was never suggested in any of LDs or my comments on any forum. We were and are, looking for a way to get more shooting/practicing in a given day with less time spent scoring. And that is the way it was introduced, but you read it differently for some reason.. and I feel, went on the attack. Larry attacked back.. the issues you two have are deep and old. Let them go, both of you... or at least keep it off the forums...

If you don't convert YOUR organization to a democracy, then there is a good chance, another one will be formed.
Is that what you want? Is that good for our sport? No, I don't think so, but some feel there is no other choice, and I am one of them.

To say that six "behind the curtain" people helped you make the decisions here is not good enough. There would be absolutely no complaining from me anyway, if voting decided the issues.. it's the way decisions are made, not the outcome, I'm complaining about.

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Good Morning Wayne, I can easly tell you why I feel qualified to say who is welcome and who is not ........it's called "The spirit of the sport" and what we call here in Texas as
good old "Redneck Logic" If you cannot understand my prior post and the wisdom contained within I am truly sorry. I have been in this sport and an active competitor for 50 plus years and have seen the decay and destruction of many clubs and orginizations with the likes of what and who you are attempting to side with. It is a cancer it will and does destroy. My personal goal is to prevent this from happening here. If you find this effort offensive to you, again I am sorry.

If you feel that the association needs vote tweaking please know we are all for it. In case you do not recall we have been a might bit busy sence conception and yes there are areas that need to be addressed. It all takes time as we grow and learn. We sincerly thank you for bringing this item to light. It is a perfect example of how we invisioned the orginazation to function.....Shooter input............ Please know we are all for it Wyane and here is our offer.

You figure out a method of voting you are comfortable with, submit it to Steve, we will have an on line discussion, let the sanction clubs review and pass judgment on same and it will become law.............you have the ball.

Please know I have no quarrel with you Wyane in fact I personally along with many others concider you to be the bright spot in all this nonsense. Please do not let us and this sport down. You are headed in the right direction making a super effort to promote the most accurate game on the planet and we are proud of you. Do not get caught up in the garbage and personalities that has seeped into it. Stay your course, excell at what you are very good at. This nonsense only degrades the sport and keeps shooters away.

We as this association made up of you shooters can and will discuss anything as long as personalities and snide remarks are absent from the discussion
The goal here is improved accuracy not egoism.

Respectfully, Frank
 
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