B
bj75
Guest
Could anybody help me understand the advantages and disadvantages between belted and non-belted cartridges.
Thank you....
Joe.
Thank you....
Joe.
David Valdina
Member
Discussion
I found this on Opticstalk.com and it explains better than non-belted needs to wear suspenders.
Dolphin
Optics Master
Joined: October/05/2006
Location: North Carolina
Topic: New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted
Posted: December/09/2007 at 08:12
This post has reference to the recent post on the RCM cartridges and the 270 Wby. vs 270 wsm. and really more on the advantages of the belted cartridges. I really would like to see cartridge designers do something really novel, in this century and design some new cartridges around belted cartridges. The main advantage of the belted cartridges is head spacing, which is the distance from the bolt face to the forward face of the belt which is very small. While counterintuitive, even small changes, which rarely occur, will still fall withing SAAMI specs and in addition for amateur gunsmiths like myself, it makes adding a new threaded non-chambered barrel much easier, because head spacing does not depend on the chamber. Sure some adjustments may need to be made, but not as drastic and alto can be handled with bullet seating. Newer designs could have their diameter widened like the short mags for ultra performance. The longer action does not bother me, if it bothers you, shorten the barrel, 18 or 20 inches and still exceed the performances of other cartridges. The issue of stiffness of an action based on the length is a mute point for hunting. In the war for pushing the limit for performance, the belted cartridges for the most part still remain supreme. Lazzeroni has very suspicious specs at an altitude of 3000 fps with 27 inch barrels and I have heard rumor of 28 inch. With newer slower burning powders, the longer "new" belted cartridges could really fly.
Now, while I really believe that there could be some good non-magnum belted cartridges made and some magnums, I really do not think it is necessary. It would be fun, given the explosion of cartridges that while interesting, really do not give us anything we do not offer us any ballistic advantages, only advantages in the rifles we shoot. So, why not with the belted cartridges with some of their advantages.
But, the real truth of the post, is that the belted cartridge is still a great cartridge, has been and always will be and should never be forgotten or excluded as a choice of a caliber when buying a rifle, just because it is belted (as previously noted it does have its advantages.) The only reason I bring this up, is that it seems to many people shy away from one at the sheer mention of the fact that is belted, with the exception of the 300 win. mag. as the average shooter does not know that it is belted. This applies to the 300 H&H, Wbys. and all other belted cartridges.
I found this on Opticstalk.com and it explains better than non-belted needs to wear suspenders.
Dolphin
Optics Master
Joined: October/05/2006
Location: North Carolina
Topic: New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted
Posted: December/09/2007 at 08:12
This post has reference to the recent post on the RCM cartridges and the 270 Wby. vs 270 wsm. and really more on the advantages of the belted cartridges. I really would like to see cartridge designers do something really novel, in this century and design some new cartridges around belted cartridges. The main advantage of the belted cartridges is head spacing, which is the distance from the bolt face to the forward face of the belt which is very small. While counterintuitive, even small changes, which rarely occur, will still fall withing SAAMI specs and in addition for amateur gunsmiths like myself, it makes adding a new threaded non-chambered barrel much easier, because head spacing does not depend on the chamber. Sure some adjustments may need to be made, but not as drastic and alto can be handled with bullet seating. Newer designs could have their diameter widened like the short mags for ultra performance. The longer action does not bother me, if it bothers you, shorten the barrel, 18 or 20 inches and still exceed the performances of other cartridges. The issue of stiffness of an action based on the length is a mute point for hunting. In the war for pushing the limit for performance, the belted cartridges for the most part still remain supreme. Lazzeroni has very suspicious specs at an altitude of 3000 fps with 27 inch barrels and I have heard rumor of 28 inch. With newer slower burning powders, the longer "new" belted cartridges could really fly.
Now, while I really believe that there could be some good non-magnum belted cartridges made and some magnums, I really do not think it is necessary. It would be fun, given the explosion of cartridges that while interesting, really do not give us anything we do not offer us any ballistic advantages, only advantages in the rifles we shoot. So, why not with the belted cartridges with some of their advantages.
But, the real truth of the post, is that the belted cartridge is still a great cartridge, has been and always will be and should never be forgotten or excluded as a choice of a caliber when buying a rifle, just because it is belted (as previously noted it does have its advantages.) The only reason I bring this up, is that it seems to many people shy away from one at the sheer mention of the fact that is belted, with the exception of the 300 win. mag. as the average shooter does not know that it is belted. This applies to the 300 H&H, Wbys. and all other belted cartridges.
J
Jay Idaho
Guest
The concept of a belt on a cartridge base is at least a century old. It was not needed when large African cartridges were rimmed, the rim established the headspace in double rifles. When repeating rifles came along and cartridges were stacked in a magazine, the rimmed cartridges would often not feed consistently. A belt was added and the rim diameter reduced which permitted cartridges to be stacked and fed from the magazine. I think that the 375 H&H was the first to be belted. It lacked adequate shoulder to use a shoulder for headspacing. The 300 H&H quickly followed, if what I have read is true.
When wildcatters started designing larger volume rounds the easy choice of parent brass was the H&H basic brass. Even when the 404 Jeffrey and similar cartridges could have been used, the wildcatters chose the belted cases. So we are stuck with a lot of belted cartridges that do not need a belt. Black Mesa, Dakota and now Remington, Winchester, Ruger, etc. have all come out with new case designs based on the 404 Jeffrey case and abandoned the belt. I like this, I hate unnecessary belts on cartridges.
The 458 Win, Lott, etc., still need a belt due to the lack of a shoulder for headspace.
This is from articles that I have read and my opinion. Opinions vary.
When wildcatters started designing larger volume rounds the easy choice of parent brass was the H&H basic brass. Even when the 404 Jeffrey and similar cartridges could have been used, the wildcatters chose the belted cases. So we are stuck with a lot of belted cartridges that do not need a belt. Black Mesa, Dakota and now Remington, Winchester, Ruger, etc. have all come out with new case designs based on the 404 Jeffrey case and abandoned the belt. I like this, I hate unnecessary belts on cartridges.
The 458 Win, Lott, etc., still need a belt due to the lack of a shoulder for headspace.
This is from articles that I have read and my opinion. Opinions vary.
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
I was taught originally one of the purposes of the belt was for correct head spacing. From the back of the case to the front of the belt was supposed to be exactly .220".... the only problem is they have never been able to manufacture brass that accurately. The majority of brass is quite under size and thus has built in headspace. The other reason for the belted magnum case [I think] was simply marketing... they needed something new to sell. The new short fat cases fit this niche in my opinion too.
longshooter
New member
i like the belted round. i think it has more benefits than what it is normally given credit for.
i will give one good example. perhaps others will chime in, and we can end up with a complete list of pros and cons.
belted magnum;
one big benefit that stands out, is it's ability to chamber and shoot other cartridges for which it is not specifically chambered for or headspaced for. that is to say, the belt provides headspacing, without regard to shoulder to chamber spacing. an example would be the 300 ackley's ability to shoot other belted cartridges.
J
Jay Idaho
Guest
There was an article in Rifle Magazine (I think) a few years ago on a catastophic blow up of a Weatherby rifle. The shooter fired a 7mm Rem mag round in a 7mm Weatherby rifle. The bullet jumped from the case but did not enter the barrel and continue on. The case expanded and did not support or guide the bullet into the barrel. The bullet plugged the barrel at the throat and the chamber became a bomb as the action destructed.
I could see this happening with a number of belted caratrdges that were short for the chamber but still had "correct headspace".
You have been warned.
David Valdina
Member
Knowing what to feed it important
Thanks Jay, That is a good point about the potential for mix ups with belted cases. One I had not thought of. I have read that belted cases don't feed from a magazine as well as non-belted cases, but my experience has not shown that in the rifles I have owned.
Thanks Jay, That is a good point about the potential for mix ups with belted cases. One I had not thought of. I have read that belted cases don't feed from a magazine as well as non-belted cases, but my experience has not shown that in the rifles I have owned.
longshooter
New member
jay, idaho,
not so fast please.
your example and presented case problem might indeed be fact. but there is probably other problems associated with what happened there. i would like to read the article, for sure.
using the 7rm in the wea chamber might present a problem because of it's short neck length. of course, you would want to use reasonable discretion on which cartridges would be suitable for this conversion.
not so fast please.
your example and presented case problem might indeed be fact. but there is probably other problems associated with what happened there. i would like to read the article, for sure.
using the 7rm in the wea chamber might present a problem because of it's short neck length. of course, you would want to use reasonable discretion on which cartridges would be suitable for this conversion.
Boyd Allen
Active member
The idea that a short chambered belted caliber barrel could be used without fitting is incorrect. Whether the critical dimension is from the datum line on the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face, or from the front edge of the belt portion of the chamber to the bolt face makes no difference. Actions are not uniform in dimension in their dimensions from front of action ( or front of recoil lug, when a Remington type lug is used) to bolt face, and that is why individual fitting is needed, except where a Savage type barrel nut is used, and in that case, it is not short chambered.
Belts allow a wildcatter to fire form case shapes that would be much more difficult without the belt. Rimmed cases have the same advantage, but may not be of suitable design, and/ or not feed well from a magazine. On the other hand, with repeated firings of hot loads, the area around the belt can present sizing issues that require a special die and a separate sizing step to address.
Belted and non-belted cases can both give satisfactory results. Everything else being equal, I would choose non-belted, but if there is something ballistically unique about a particular caliber that excited me, or the availability of a particular rifle, then I would go with the belted case.
Belts allow a wildcatter to fire form case shapes that would be much more difficult without the belt. Rimmed cases have the same advantage, but may not be of suitable design, and/ or not feed well from a magazine. On the other hand, with repeated firings of hot loads, the area around the belt can present sizing issues that require a special die and a separate sizing step to address.
Belted and non-belted cases can both give satisfactory results. Everything else being equal, I would choose non-belted, but if there is something ballistically unique about a particular caliber that excited me, or the availability of a particular rifle, then I would go with the belted case.
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J
Jay Idaho
Guest
Dennis,
I think that the Rem cartridge was enough SHORTER than the Wby chamber that the bullet was not guided into the neck with pressure at the base to cause the bullet to continue down the barrel. The case immediately expanded and allowed gas to fill the area in the chamber but NOT adequately focusing the force behind the bullet. The bullet simply plugged the barrel at the rear and would not allow the gas to escape down the barrel.
I think that the same thing could happen with any action, this was not any fault or sign of weakness in the Weatherby action.
longshooter
New member
boyd allen,
belted magnum, another pro;
"Belts allow a wildcatter to fire form case shapes that would be much more difficult without the belt".
thank you for the crumb.
i don't know what you are proclaiming in your first paragraph, about short chambered, or datum lines. is that pertaining to the original question? the belted case headspaces on the belt.
i think that something that needs to be said here, is that factory belted cartridges sometimes incorporate such generous dimensions in a sammi chamber, that you are blowing forward and fireforming in the first firing. the belt allows for this. perhaps this is why rimless cartridges seem to exhibite better accuracy on first firing, in that their tolerances are tighter in the sammi chamber. the manufacturers can't get away with as much, with a rimless.
thank you,
longshooter
belted magnum, another pro;
"Belts allow a wildcatter to fire form case shapes that would be much more difficult without the belt".
thank you for the crumb.
i don't know what you are proclaiming in your first paragraph, about short chambered, or datum lines. is that pertaining to the original question? the belted case headspaces on the belt.
i think that something that needs to be said here, is that factory belted cartridges sometimes incorporate such generous dimensions in a sammi chamber, that you are blowing forward and fireforming in the first firing. the belt allows for this. perhaps this is why rimless cartridges seem to exhibite better accuracy on first firing, in that their tolerances are tighter in the sammi chamber. the manufacturers can't get away with as much, with a rimless.
thank you,
longshooter
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D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
The overall length differences between the two cartridges is only about 80 thou and the brass length difference only 45 thou. Even if a bullet was seated very deeply into a Rem Mag case, it would still contact the throat area before it would be totally free of the case neck. No way is it not guided into the barrel...
I don't believe the reason the Weatherby blew was because of the slight difference in cartridges. There has to be more to the story. Possibly a hand load was involved.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Longshooter-
My first paragraph was in response to a hurried, and upon reflection, incorrect reading of the quote by David from Opticstalk.com. In my hurry, I misread his threaded unchambered as short chambered. What Dolphin wrote in that section still makes no sense to me.
As to the bit about the fire forming ease for wildcats, it was addressed to the original questioner, who from his question, I thought might not know. I should have added that these days it is about the only advantage that a belt offers, and since most of us are not in the midst of creating what would undoubtedly be a redundant wildcat, that there is in fact no advantage to a belt.
Your point about belted cases' shoulders being in effect fire formed on the first firing is a good one. On the cases that I have measured the shoulder was blown forward over .020". Additionally, it should be mentioned that many hunter/reloaders of belted magnums have experienced short case life, that they usually wrote off to "magnum pressures" due to inattention to shoulder bump when sizing. With no SAAMI standard for the head to shoulder dimension for belted cases, die manufactures have been forced to build in what would be, for a non belted case, excessive potential bump, and that combined with the common practice of running the die down till it touches the shell holder resulted in short case life due to repeated cycles of excessive bump and blowing back out. Of course you know all of this, but others may not.
Boyd
My first paragraph was in response to a hurried, and upon reflection, incorrect reading of the quote by David from Opticstalk.com. In my hurry, I misread his threaded unchambered as short chambered. What Dolphin wrote in that section still makes no sense to me.
As to the bit about the fire forming ease for wildcats, it was addressed to the original questioner, who from his question, I thought might not know. I should have added that these days it is about the only advantage that a belt offers, and since most of us are not in the midst of creating what would undoubtedly be a redundant wildcat, that there is in fact no advantage to a belt.
Your point about belted cases' shoulders being in effect fire formed on the first firing is a good one. On the cases that I have measured the shoulder was blown forward over .020". Additionally, it should be mentioned that many hunter/reloaders of belted magnums have experienced short case life, that they usually wrote off to "magnum pressures" due to inattention to shoulder bump when sizing. With no SAAMI standard for the head to shoulder dimension for belted cases, die manufactures have been forced to build in what would be, for a non belted case, excessive potential bump, and that combined with the common practice of running the die down till it touches the shell holder resulted in short case life due to repeated cycles of excessive bump and blowing back out. Of course you know all of this, but others may not.
Boyd
longshooter
New member
boyd allen,
thank you for the reply. and clarification. i always enjoy reading your posts when i see them.
the blowing forward of undersized cases shows the value of the belted magnum. it also demonstrates, for those that are noticing, the flexibility of the belted case. i feel more safe firing a belted. and i think when chambering a belted, that the headspace can be tightened up at the belt, vs. a factory chamber. some cases measure 0.216" at the belt, but the chambers measure circa 0.223".
i am fortunate in that my rcbs standard die takes me to 0.001" headspace, on the shoulder. it would be nice to get those excessive bump problems corrected, for reloaders.
thanks again,
longshooter
thank you for the reply. and clarification. i always enjoy reading your posts when i see them.
the blowing forward of undersized cases shows the value of the belted magnum. it also demonstrates, for those that are noticing, the flexibility of the belted case. i feel more safe firing a belted. and i think when chambering a belted, that the headspace can be tightened up at the belt, vs. a factory chamber. some cases measure 0.216" at the belt, but the chambers measure circa 0.223".
i am fortunate in that my rcbs standard die takes me to 0.001" headspace, on the shoulder. it would be nice to get those excessive bump problems corrected, for reloaders.
thanks again,
longshooter
J
Jay Idaho
Guest
I'm not a gunsmith but I build my own rifles and consider myself to be a precision reloader. I do not want to be argumentive in my posts, just safety minded. If you think I'm full of crap that is fine, we all have opinions. Flame away.
I've checked a number of factory rifles, mostly Remington 700s, for headspace of belted cases. More often that I would have thought, the "field" gage will go in the chamber. I think that is .227". Nominal "go" is .220, I think.
I have also checked a lot of factory belted magnum brass and loaded ammo. I've seen a lot of belts that were .212" to .215".
These tolerances are not dangerous as they may be in a non-belted case/chamber but are surely not something that I like to see.
I have taken measures to reduce the excessive headspace on my magnum chambers and closely match the brass belts and set the shoulder to boltface dimensions to match my FL die. This is a pain but does solve some of the problems that I see with belted cartridges. But I still don't like belts except where necessary, like on the 458 cartridges that lack shoulders.
404 Jeffrey and 330 Dakota (Norma manuf) are great places to start if you dislike the belts. 416 Rigby necked to 338 and IMP is much nicer than a 338-378 Wby.
Opinions by Jay
I've checked a number of factory rifles, mostly Remington 700s, for headspace of belted cases. More often that I would have thought, the "field" gage will go in the chamber. I think that is .227". Nominal "go" is .220, I think.
I have also checked a lot of factory belted magnum brass and loaded ammo. I've seen a lot of belts that were .212" to .215".
These tolerances are not dangerous as they may be in a non-belted case/chamber but are surely not something that I like to see.
I have taken measures to reduce the excessive headspace on my magnum chambers and closely match the brass belts and set the shoulder to boltface dimensions to match my FL die. This is a pain but does solve some of the problems that I see with belted cartridges. But I still don't like belts except where necessary, like on the 458 cartridges that lack shoulders.
404 Jeffrey and 330 Dakota (Norma manuf) are great places to start if you dislike the belts. 416 Rigby necked to 338 and IMP is much nicer than a 338-378 Wby.
Opinions by Jay
Boyd Allen
Active member
Longshooter,
I think that one of the best things that we can do for less experienced reloaders is to convince them that they need a tool that allows them to measure bump. I favor the Stoney Point tool, that Hornady has taken over. A related tip is that cases don't reach their maximum datum line to head measurement in one firing, particularly when the first firing has moved a lot of brass. For that reason a case that has been neck sized and fired several times, with a warm load, is a good thing to keep handy as a reference. When I don't have the time to produce such a case, I usually set the shoulder where it came out of the rifle after firing, and chamber the case to see how it feels. Most of the time, if the body diameter of the case is reduced by the FL die, this works fine.
Boyd
I think that one of the best things that we can do for less experienced reloaders is to convince them that they need a tool that allows them to measure bump. I favor the Stoney Point tool, that Hornady has taken over. A related tip is that cases don't reach their maximum datum line to head measurement in one firing, particularly when the first firing has moved a lot of brass. For that reason a case that has been neck sized and fired several times, with a warm load, is a good thing to keep handy as a reference. When I don't have the time to produce such a case, I usually set the shoulder where it came out of the rifle after firing, and chamber the case to see how it feels. Most of the time, if the body diameter of the case is reduced by the FL die, this works fine.
Boyd
Bill Wynne
Active member
Joe,
I think you have the general thinking from some of the most experienced shooters and smiths. There are other ways that are reliable to create head space for wildcats that are reliable. I think it is like this: If you have or want a belted cartridge, that is fine. There is very little if any advantage to the belted design.
On a side note about head space. At a turkey shoot at a running deer target, I saw an experienced hand loader fire three 243 cartridges in rapid secession through his 6.5 / 06 AI with no harm. Until he picked up his brass, he was not aware of any problem. THIS IS NOT A SAFE PRACTICE.
Concho Bill
M
MistWolf
Guest
I grew up in a time when all popular magnums had a belt. (There may have been an exception, but my memory is dim on which.) As Jay from Idaho pointed out, the belt was developed to allow rimmed cartridges to feed from box magazines. This was important because during the early days of the bolt action hunting rifle, double rifles reigned supreme for hunting dangerous game.
Double rifles were designed with the technology of the day to be as reliable as possible. With two fire controls and two barrels, they were two rifles with doubled reliability and a quicker follow up shot than a bolt action. Bolt actions had yet to prove their reliability.
Because they had to work in double rifles, all the dangerous game calibers were rimmed. It was simpler to place a belt on a rimmed cartridge so it would feed from a magazine than it was to adapt the double rifle to a rimless cartridge. It was s simple matter for double gun makers make the rim cut deeper to allow the use of the belted cartridges. At this time, the British loaded their tropical calibers with long strands of cordite powder. Pressures were low to prevent cartridges from sticking in the chambers when fired. Cordite also gave unpredictable pressure spikes caused by exposure to temperature changes. This meant long, large cases that the early wildcatters would come to know and love as Americans gained access to improved smokeless powders.
Headspacing a belted cartridge simplifies cutting a chamber for the manufacturer as you can be a bit generous in cutting the shoulders- sometimes too generous. This caused all kinds of headaches for the reloader and precision shooter. Until a reloader becomes experienced with bottlenecked belted cartridges, it's easy to set the sizing dies to push the shoulders back into specs. This means the brass stretches when fired to fit the chamber, yet gets pushed back and trimmed. After just a few firings, the brass thins out at the web and the reloader soon experiences head separations.
It causes problems for the precision shooter as the ammo is a loose fit in the chamber, and pressure and velocity is lost forming the brass to fit.
Of course, the answer is simple. Fire your brass, then size to fit your chamber.
My thoughts are the belted case offers little to no advantage to me as a shooter. It takes up space in the magazine at cost to performance. All else being equal, a beltless rimless case of the same outside diameter as the belt, will have a greater internal diameter. Or, if you turned the case to remove the belt, you'll have the same performance taking up less space in your magazine and might be able to fit one more round.
It offers no advantages in headspacing, as proper reloading techniques mean that bottlenecked cartridges will be headspaced on the shoulder, particularly at higher pressures. Going beltless has been the best thing for high performance cartridges since Roy Weatherby
Double rifles were designed with the technology of the day to be as reliable as possible. With two fire controls and two barrels, they were two rifles with doubled reliability and a quicker follow up shot than a bolt action. Bolt actions had yet to prove their reliability.
Because they had to work in double rifles, all the dangerous game calibers were rimmed. It was simpler to place a belt on a rimmed cartridge so it would feed from a magazine than it was to adapt the double rifle to a rimless cartridge. It was s simple matter for double gun makers make the rim cut deeper to allow the use of the belted cartridges. At this time, the British loaded their tropical calibers with long strands of cordite powder. Pressures were low to prevent cartridges from sticking in the chambers when fired. Cordite also gave unpredictable pressure spikes caused by exposure to temperature changes. This meant long, large cases that the early wildcatters would come to know and love as Americans gained access to improved smokeless powders.
Headspacing a belted cartridge simplifies cutting a chamber for the manufacturer as you can be a bit generous in cutting the shoulders- sometimes too generous. This caused all kinds of headaches for the reloader and precision shooter. Until a reloader becomes experienced with bottlenecked belted cartridges, it's easy to set the sizing dies to push the shoulders back into specs. This means the brass stretches when fired to fit the chamber, yet gets pushed back and trimmed. After just a few firings, the brass thins out at the web and the reloader soon experiences head separations.
It causes problems for the precision shooter as the ammo is a loose fit in the chamber, and pressure and velocity is lost forming the brass to fit.
Of course, the answer is simple. Fire your brass, then size to fit your chamber.
My thoughts are the belted case offers little to no advantage to me as a shooter. It takes up space in the magazine at cost to performance. All else being equal, a beltless rimless case of the same outside diameter as the belt, will have a greater internal diameter. Or, if you turned the case to remove the belt, you'll have the same performance taking up less space in your magazine and might be able to fit one more round.
It offers no advantages in headspacing, as proper reloading techniques mean that bottlenecked cartridges will be headspaced on the shoulder, particularly at higher pressures. Going beltless has been the best thing for high performance cartridges since Roy Weatherby
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jackie schmidt
New member
The Inventor
Holland and Holland invented the Belted Case, for one reason. Many of the chamberings had very shallow shoulders, (to facilitate easy feeding in dangerous situations), and they wanted to insure a positive headspace. Hence, the belt and the corresponding counterbore in the barrel.
As for the 7mm Rem Mag in the Weatherby, I agree with Dennise. All it will do is blow the case out. leaving a really short neck.
At most local Gun Ranges, it is not uncommon to see 300 Win mag cases with hardly any neck left laying on the ground. They had been shot in a 300 Weatherby chamber. I have actually witnessed this at the old Lake Houston Gun Club. The owner of the Rifle went to Academy, bought some "300 magnums", and headed to the range. He didn't even know the difference.........jackie
Holland and Holland invented the Belted Case, for one reason. Many of the chamberings had very shallow shoulders, (to facilitate easy feeding in dangerous situations), and they wanted to insure a positive headspace. Hence, the belt and the corresponding counterbore in the barrel.
As for the 7mm Rem Mag in the Weatherby, I agree with Dennise. All it will do is blow the case out. leaving a really short neck.
At most local Gun Ranges, it is not uncommon to see 300 Win mag cases with hardly any neck left laying on the ground. They had been shot in a 300 Weatherby chamber. I have actually witnessed this at the old Lake Houston Gun Club. The owner of the Rifle went to Academy, bought some "300 magnums", and headed to the range. He didn't even know the difference.........jackie