Be honest, it's the recoil!

M

model14

Guest
As the subject implies, I believe we are recoil sensitive when shooting a match, and we choose our equipment accordingly. Throw out the recoil issue and we would all be shooting .338 Lapua Magnums, or at the least a .300 WSM!

What is the reasoning behind shooting a 22 cal, 6mm, or even a 6.5, if it is not concern for recoil?
 
Accuracy and trajectory I think... Some cartridges are more accurate than others and it is not just due to lack of recoil. Recoil is a big factor though.
 
I think the reason why the bigger calibers are less inherently accurate is mostly because of the effects of recoil on the platform.

Higher pressure and bigger bullets set up more severe barrel vibrations, move the rifle more before the bullet exits, disturbs the bedding and stresses the connection between the boreline and scope more than lighter recoiling rifles.

If you scale everything up (think of the 50 lb+ unlimited class LRBR rifles with 1.5" diameter barrels blocked into railroad ties), the effects of recoil on the platform are reigned back in, and those rifles can actually shoot small groups, even by short range, 6ppc standards.

I'm agreeing with both of the above; the recoil does affect the shooter, but it also affects the potential precision of the rifle if the rifle's too light.

-Bryan
 
Bryan,

Your involvement in this thread is particularly germane to my reason for this thread. I am in the process of working up a new 600 yard rifle and I am considering going from my current 260 Rem to a straight 284 Win. I shoot F/Open and my rig weighs the max of 22 pounds. With the 260 there is not a noticeable recoil, or at least one I think about when shooting a match. I don't consider it a factor.

Our home range has winds all over the place that are hard to read. My 260 has consistently shot well under these conditions by just aiming at the X. I am relying on the good BC of the 6.5 to help me outshoot the 22 and 6 guys trying to figure out the wind changes. I just shoot through them.

Your (Berger) 7mm 180 grain Target VLD has really caught my eye. It has the highest G1 and G7 BC of all of your bullet line. Based on my experience with the 6.5mm bullet in the wind, I want to go even further using the 7mm. However ....

Without going to a magnum case, the Win .284 looks like it can just get the job done. We are talking 10 grains more of powder and 40 grains more of bullet weight than the 260. I believe 2800 fps in a 30" barrel is achievable within pressure limits and should have reasonably good barrel life.

I am concerned about recoil, though. I know I can take significantly more than the 260 puts out, but I don't have a good feel for what I am dealing with with the .284. As you stated in yourr post, I may lose some consistency/accuracy, which would cancel the good wind bucking of the bigger bullet.

As I titled the thread, it is about recoil, and I want to hear what other people think about recoil as an issue in a match shoot.
 
Back in the late 1950's, early 1960's the .30-.338 was the b all end all for the High power gang, trouble was the shooters according to the AMU could not take the long series of recoil. This was not a dissimilar problem that people ran into years before shooting the course with the .375H&H in fact Winchester produced rifles with bull barrels for just this purpose in the Model 70. It has been a problem for a century or more.
 
There is another factor also; Muzzle Pressure
Bigger cartridges/bullets require slower burning powder, which usually results in higher muzzle pressures(lower efficiency). Higher muzzle pressure can cause a muzzle release that is less clean. Especially with boat tails.

Just mess up a crown a touch and amplify this with high muzzle pressure, and I think you would see how significant this can be.

Smaller cartridges used competitively run faster powders, at very high pressures(way higher than larger cartridges). Their powder is completely burned before bullet exit(very efficient). Combine this with flat based bullets and stiffer barrels(allowed by cal and cartridge efficiency) ,and you have a 6PPC to 6dasher basis.
 
Good point(s) mike, high muzzle pressure is also a bad thing for precision.

model14,
There is some good reading on the .284 on 6mmbr.com. You can find several good articles by searching.

Recoil will be greater, but will that have more of a negative impact on score than the ballistics can make up for?

The answer to that question is: it depends. Specifically it depends on the conditions you're shooting in. Given calm conditions, you're possibly giving up precision with the bigger bullet and gaining no ballistic advantage (because the wind isn't blowing). So in calm conditions, your 260 would be preferred.

However, in very bad/windy conditions, the slightly less precise larger caliber/bullet will be the better option if it beats the ballistics of the smaller, more precise option by enough of a margin.

Sort of makes it hard to just choose one rifle. One is tempted to fill a golf bag with different rifles, and pull out the best one for the conditions when the match starts.

There's another way to think about it though.

The following analysis assumes you can only have one rifle and also assumes that you're interested in winning matches with multiple relays and big tournaments.

Think about what happens in a long match. You usually have windy days/relays and calm days/relays. When the conditions are calm, the standings remain relatively close. The top um'teen places are usually only separated by a couple points or a fraction of an inch in group size. Then comes a bad day/relay. What happens when the conditions are bad is the standings get spread out more. How you do in the bad conditions is more important to the end result than how you do in the calm conditions. This is true because there is a larger differential in scores/groups in bad conditions. From that point of view, if you can only choose one rifle, it makes more sense to go with the slightly less precise, higher BC combo. Of course there are degrees. If you can't get the beast to shoot inside 1 MOA, compared to your smaller caliber 1/4 MOA hammer, you probably won't make that up in ballistics. But if it's more like .3 or .4 MOA vs .2 MOA, then it's more interesting.

Going with the heavier rifle, you may get burned if the match is short and/or you're never confronted with bad conditions, but ask yourself how often that really happens. Would you rather go to a match wishing it stays nice, or go hoping it gets bad (conditions).

Good to strategize about these things ahead of time so you know your equipment strengths and weaknesses than to discover them in the heat of battle.

-Bryan
 
yes and no

Some of you are saying recoil, but it seems to me the IBS 1000 yd LG group and score record belongs to Tom Sarver with his 30 cal.

Some of you are saying that the big cases arn't as accurate, but see above, + the HG class is FULL of 30 cal. guns that win lots of wood.

I am in the middle...yes and no....big and small....good and bad... I personaly shoot a 30 cal, and if I can do my part, which is mainly a consentration issue and a set up issue, I can win.....But...I see guys shooting dashers, and thier abillity to shoot fast stings is incredible. Al Fobes comes to mind. On the other hand, Shannon Ammerman shoots, from what I understand, is a 6.5-284....not exactly a small round.....incredably fast. I wish I had gotten to see her shoot in Iowa!!!! I think if speed is your only concern...shoot a 6 mm br or dasher. On the other hand, I think that if you can find the proper setup....bags, rests, gun, ect.....you will be able to shoot twice as fast and twice as good....even a big 30 cal. But.....I would really like to have a dual port BAT in a dasher...I have one on a remmy, but it's just not the same.

So, as you can see, I am all over the place...yes and no, big and small, brains and no brains....well maybe not brains, don't recall having ever had one of those?????:eek:

If there were such a thing as a case that was more inherintly accurate, big or small....everyone would have one and this all would be a non issue....and NOBODY would shoot a belted magnum, since it has been proven that they just won't shoot!!!;)

Tod

PS...how about cost of components?????
 
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model14 said:
As the subject implies, I believe we are recoil sensitive when shooting a match, and we choose our equipment accordingly. Throw out the recoil issue and we would all be shooting .338 Lapua Magnums, or at the least a .300 WSM!

What is the reasoning behind shooting a 22 cal, 6mm, or even a 6.5, if it is not concern for recoil?
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct, recoil and compromise.

D R
 
It's All About Accuracy

Even in light recoil chamberings, there are only a few that are competitive in 100-200 yard Benchrest.

For instance, a 223 Remington, 6BR, fullsize 22BR, fullsize 22PPC, and a host of others are certainly "light recoil', and are quite accurate, but leave enough on the table so that they will not compete, (as in agg), with a 6PPC or a 22PPC 100 short, or a 30BR.

Some cases just have that magic combination of powder volume to bore section, or what ever.........jackie
 
How good the brass is is the biggest limiting factor in any ctg. A lot of the problems with bigger ctgs is the flaw of banana shaped brass. A lot of problems can be solved by good rifle components, but good brass is fundamental to a rifles success.
 
model14 said:
As the subject implies, I believe we are recoil sensitive when shooting a match, and we choose our equipment accordingly. Throw out the recoil issue and we would all be shooting .338 Lapua Magnums, or at the least a .300 WSM!

What is the reasoning behind shooting a 22 cal, 6mm, or even a 6.5, if it is not concern for recoil?
Click to expand...

Well of course recoil is a big factor. I guess I could say what is your reasoning for thinking a big 30 mag would agg better than a 6ppc? A 6ppc in a 10.5 lb rifle produces approximatel 4 lbs/ft of recoril energy. A 30Br in same rifle produces about twice that. Most people I have seen shooting the 30BR and 30ppc use a recoil pad on their shoulder. Thats the only way they can get thru a match and still properly address the rifle and setup. Do you think you could shoot a 50 BMG in a 10.5 lb rifle accurately? I doubt it. But there is as Jackie just said, certain case/barrel volume/powder combinations that just agg a bit better than the others. I think if you get Harold Vaughns book and read it, you will find that muzzle pressure at time of bullet exit is a factor in accuracy. The lower this pressure, generally speaking, the more accurate the rifle/bullet/powder combination is. I am talking about short range Benchrest here. Where minute differences can make a big difference in the agging ability of the rifle and rifleman. You just might find that a difference of only .003" in seating depth makes all the difference in the grouping ability of your rifle. Long range shooting....different story completely. Heavy rifles, burn lots of powder, drive a big heavy high BC bullet fast as you can will usually win. At least from what I have seen. I just don't believe a .338 mag even in a properly heavy rifle will agg with a 6ppc, 30Br or a 22-100 in short range. Just my opinion. If you really think so, build one and shoot it in competition. Just stay at least 5 benches from me.:)

Donald
 
Recoil never used to bother me when I was a young guy, but now its a whole different story. I can shoot my 16.5 lb 6 BR with 105 gr pills at the bench all day long, then when I switch over to my 11 lb Sako 75 V chambered in .243 Win, it beats me hard enough that I don't like to shoot it anymore. Anyone looking for a Sako in .243 Win?
 
If recoil doesn't bother you you're just not shooting enough!

I weigh 240lb and a 15 pound .243 will give me Medulla Elongatus over time.... I've come in from a long shoot feeling like I'd gone 10 rds with Mr T. For that matter, Elmer Keith, The Manliest Man I've heard or read of, was recoil shy! He declined to shoot a bolt actioned 50BMG from the shoulder. :D

Plus recoil upsets the rests.... I'm building a 300WSM right now, something around 35-50lb depending on how much steel I can hang on it, and I've got a whole stack of drawings trying to figger out how to get 'er to return to battery.

I've fought and fought with the effects of recoil on the bag system while shooting the 6X47L and even the 6BR...... recoil and torque over time, hard to repeat. Makes getting a PPC set up look easy.

Recoil SUCKS!!

:)

al
 
Al,
This is what makes shooting such a great sport. There is no magic wand. The consistently good shooters have found the best compromise between body, mind and equipment. We never stop searching for the right combination.
Richard
 
If it's all about length

how come someone hasn't come up with a lighter weight core for bullets. If the weight could be reduced, the recoil would be reduced, therefore enabeling us to go faster and be more wind resistant,eh?
 
Pete Wass said:
how come someone hasn't come up with a lighter weight core for bullets. If the weight could be reduced, the recoil would be reduced, therefore enabeling us to go faster and be more wind resistant,eh?
Click to expand...

I think it is more than length. You could use an aluminum alloy that would be soft enough, but then you are messing with the sectional density which is part of what makes a bullet flight its path well. Heck, a solid copper bullet would decrease the mass. Copper has a density that is 20% less than lead. Increased mass yields increased inertia, which makes a bullet resistance changes in path by an force (wind). So complex..... tim
 
Pete Wass said:
how come someone hasn't come up with a lighter weight core for bullets. If the weight could be reduced, the recoil would be reduced, therefore enabeling us to go faster and be more wind resistant,eh?
Click to expand...

Actually, you'd want just the opposite. A denser core material would produce a bullet with a higher BC for its weight -- less wind deflection with the same recoil level (or less recoil with the same wind deflection).

But gold, platinum, tungsten, uranium, plutonium, mercury, etc. do have some significant drawbacks as core material. :)

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
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