base to ogive tolerance when sorting???

lynn.
i would not waste wilbur's bandwidth trying to explaining anything to a nonshooter.
its much simpler to just use the ignore option and move on with life.
he claims he is not shooting because of business, but spends tons of time on here doing nothing but wasting bandwidth and time.

mike in co
 
Here's a little quote I use with my students in school, "How important is it"! Come on people, life is way to short to be arguing over "Wind".
 
Lynn, I know what a switch is. What I do not see is what a switch over a 12 hour period has to do with a 10 Minute relay. I also do not see what it would do to a target when the range is as flat as a pancake.

4Mesh
The switches happen very very often.A switch is a sudden change in the winds direction.Sudden means shorter than 12 hours.The 12 hour modeling was brought up to show you we don't have a predominant wind direction 24 hours a day 365 days a year like you are used to.If you had read the posts by Matt you would see that we shoot in the Ione triangle and not Sacramento.I drop these little clues in the hopes people will look up what they mean.Remember your post about letting them learn on there own? As that has not worked at all I will gve you more clues.
Sacramento at sea level is in an area known as the Sacramento Valley.This valley runs north and south.The pacific ocean a big body of water and the reason Sacramento is a port is on our left as we face due north when firing.As you already know the story about The Donner Party they all died and turned into cannibals in the 14,000 foot tall Sierra mountain range on our left.So far we have a north south valley and a west east thermal up the highest mountain peak in the continental United States. Next we add in the san Joaquin valley at an angle and were all three come together you put a 1,000 yard range and call it the Ione triangle.
I only posted the winds at Sacramento airport because I don't have access to a computer at home were I can post wind vectors multiple directions.

You say the place is so much tougher than we have here, but it can be read.
It can be read only by ther guy you called a BS'er and now I don'y know how he does it.
Then you say guys from CO come to your range to shoot small groups.
When did I say that?
Then you say our range that sits on top of mountains has mountains blocking the wind and so it is easy.
When dd I say that?
Then you say the range where these guys come from that has mountains 7 times as high as the ones here, and somehow that makes it tougher.
4Mesh you need to do a web search on the term thermal updrafts.

Now either they block the wind, or they don't.
4Mesh mountains create thermals and trees block the wind don't confuse yourself here as that is kind of easy LMAO and as you already said we don't have any trees.

Either the trees help, or they don't.
We don't have trees.You have trees and they help you shoot small groups.

Here's how I see it.
Lets see it from someones elses perspective for awhile as you have goty much of this stuff confused.


Now, I have to tell you, I got a terrific laugh out of one of your statements above. I've seen this before by a "Wind Reader", and it was hilarious. Tell me, how does someone know you are holding center? Does he just assume this because some people do? I suppose that's possible but, what could you possibly learn from that persons gun? How do you know how well it shoots?

4Mesh out here we are a friendly bunch and if the guy sitting next to you asks were you were holding we tell him the truth.Its okay to be honest out here.I did find your statement what could you learn to be quite amazing.I am going to answer your question only because it shocked me.If the guy next to you is shooting a 338 at 3000 fps and he hits 1 foot to the right you can hold at the edge of the 5 ring and pull the trigger while watching the flags.If he is 1 foot to the right and you are 2 feet to the right you get a rough estimate of how far to hold left in the same condition.Do you do it differently?


How do you know how much they've adjusted.
If they are holding for center they are holding for center.If they have made any adjustments I don't ask them the question.

As for Jim Hardy, he said he reads wind in F-class very conventionally, and did the same thing anyone else does when he shot benchrest. I really don't know why you keep referring to it.

4Mesh he said yes you can to your wind reading post and he hasn't shot benchrest since he started shooting F-Class.He said he is better now because now he can read the wind correctly not like before when he was reading it like you do.


Vinny Vinny Vinny
You asked why am I bothering trying to help out ol 4Mesh on reading the wind so I'll tell you.
This forum is a wealth of mis-information and we need to get it right for those viewing without posting.
In the case of 4Mesh he is denser than depleted uranium but if you break through that hard exterior and show him what is right he can be salvaged.In a post on the general discussion forum somebody asked how much horsepower a 300 win mag has.I answered 4580 hp and was immediately jumped on.You see ol 4Mesh thought it to be 1.2 hp so we went back and forth for 6 pages before I quit trying to help him.Next thing you know Alinwa is telling me that the engineer I was talking too dummied down the answer because he was talking to me a big ole dummy.Well at about page 8 or 9 Vibe(Dave Epperson) took over and it took 15 or 17 pages but he finaly got ol 4Mesh straightened out over the phone.So you see there is light at the end of the tunnel.I did feel a little bad that I jumped out after only 5-8 pages but like you I figured he was a lost cause and I was wasting bandwidth only to discover he wasn't understanding what I and others were telling him.He wasn't learning because we weren't communicating correctly.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
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. . . It ain't rocket science
Long time ago, they had one of the early NASA orbiting modules at the History Museum in Durham. You could walk around it, but couldn't really see inside. Except for being a plumbing nightmare, I was impressed with how simple it was.

Now telemetry, that's a different story. Not hard to build a rocket. Much harder to get it back home, esp. if you don't want to hit anything important in the "landing."
 
Lynn I for one am not going to give 4Mesh anymore help in kicking my butt, he dunn it enough without any help. Lynn I've looked at other peoples sighters and thought theres went out farther than my shot, say to the right, so nowing this person held in the middle like I do, does that mean my rifle shoots threw the wind better or was he lying about holding center. There is to much air between the benches and the targets, you'll just make yourself crazy trying to figure out everythjing thats going on. concentrate on making the rife shoot threw the wind!

Joe Salt
 
here is the answer.
it has been listed before.
one user is claiming something cannot be done:A) because he says so and, B) because i won xxx club matches. people will wrongly believe what he says. it is not correct...HE IS WRONG.
it is perfectly ok to say
"i do not read the wind, i shoot a condition and i did well."
it is not ok to say
"wind reading cannot be done at 1000 yds ".....when there is a multi time national champion that does read the wind...and he say it can be done.

can you see the difference in the two ???
one guy is right and one is wrong...the wrong guy thinks if he keeps typing it will make WRONG to RIGHT...IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN.
lynn is a better man than me, i would not try to correct him, just post the facts and let the wrong guy keep dribbling

mike in co
Here's a little quote I use with my students in school, "How important is it"! Come on people, life is way to short to be arguing over "Wind".
 
I can recall a long time ago when a group of BR shooters came to our range in Williamsport headed up by a former President of the organization who will remain unnamed. They came there to "show us how to read the wind" and kick our respective butts at our range. When the dust cleared, all of their results resided at the bottom of the standings and they went home NEVER to appear again.
It CAN"T be done on a regular basis. But let's put this thing to bed. I think everyone has grown weary of it.
 
It CAN"T be done on a regular basis. .

comments like this that are WRONG...are why the thread is alive...
just because YOU cannot do it on a regular basis, does not mean it cannot be done.
mike in co
 
Love It! Mike in co. HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN SHOOTING. I've Been doing it at P.A. for thirty five years now and still can't do it, Are you even that old. I know which winds are the hardest to read and I know when there is a switch, or let up. I believe the let ups raise the most hell. But dam it to say these guys that proclaim to be able to read it all the time and don't get bit. I've got I guess you would call it a National Champion Ship under me, 2006 P.A. And have placed fairly well in some in the I.B.S. So do you think I'm going to blow Smoke up your butt and tell you how great I can read the wind. NO, and I have never lied on one of these forums to say my way is the best way just trying to let you know what us run of the mill guys do. Get a good barrel and bullets and have fun, and keep measuring and sorting your bullets.

Joe Salt
 
Mike in Colorado:

There is a 1,000 yard shooter who lives in Kansas, and sometimes shoots at Byers. His name is Regan Green. I don't know whether or not he sorts bullets by shank length, or believes in reading the wind. I do know that (in 2005 anyway) he wouldn't pull a brass brush back through the bore. Seems small things count for him.

I also know that at the 2005 Nats in Pella Iowa, he shot 2 4-inch groups. A year later, at the Hawks Ridge Nats, he shot a 5-inch group in a 20+ mph wind.

Tell you what. You start beating Regan on a regular basis, and I'll start listening to you.
 
joe,
did i say you did not know how to shoot ?? no i did not. did i claim upteen years of shooting...no i did not..i has nothing to do with this subject. for the record i have been shooting since 1957...you do the math.
i never claimed any pa shooters had the skill to read wind...i never claimed i did.....so again...your or my inability to read wind...DOES NOT MEAN IT CANNOT BE DONE.

JOE WAS THE IBS OR NBRSA 1000 YD NATIONALS HELD AT PA IN 2006.......


again, in plain engish for the hard headed pennsillvania dutch,.....just because you cannot do somethng...does not mean it cannot be done.
( for the record i am penn dutch as they say...father born in franklin...was smart enough to leave...... )

charles..i am sure i met him...and no i do not expect to set the world on fire with my skills.

mike in co
 
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charles,
i would not expect you to listen to me about 1000yd shooting...but you tell me why YOU will not listen to a THREE TIME NATIONALCHAMPION ?

Mike in Colorado:

There is a 1,000 yard shooter who lives in Kansas, and sometimes shoots at Byers. His name is Regan Green. I don't know whether or not he sorts bullets by shank length, or believes in reading the wind. I do know that (in 2005 anyway) he wouldn't pull a brass brush back through the bore. Seems small things count for him.

I also know that at the 2005 Nats in Pella Iowa, he shot 2 4-inch groups. A year later, at the Hawks Ridge Nats, he shot a 5-inch group in a 20+ mph wind.

Tell you what. You start beating Regan on a regular basis, and I'll start listening to you.
 
Charles,
That chicken $hit Regan won't shoot with us anymore.
That don't mean there isn't some stiff competition at Byers anymore though.

Mike,
I believe Joe is refering to Williamsport the other and original 1000yd Benchrest orginization.

James
 
Mike in Co
You can go to the match results section at Butner and see just how good Charles E sorts his bullets and reads the wind.
You can do the same thing for Joe Salt at Williamsport.
Below is the best post to hit this forum in more than a year.It is by a true benchrest shooter
not a keyboard shooter.It is the final word.


Wind reading and 1000 yd BR
Al:

It is hard for me to express the need for wind reading skills when minds are set to the contrary, i.e., the skill is not worth learning. I can try to find the words to sway a shooter's thinking to understand why reading the conditions is so important without being offensive, but it is very difficult. On the other hand, many in the long range prone game seem to believe that NOTHING matters but the shooter and his wind reading ability -- nothing even close to precision reloading at a BR level. All of this drives me nuts.

I think we can all agree that great equipment (especially barrels and bullets), a great gunsmith and precision loads go a long way in 1000 yd BR success. Since we do not shoot in a vacume, I think we can also agree that the big varriable are the conditions -- the wind. Having said that, how can anyone deny that having a grasp of wind reading skills is not mandatory to milk the last drop out of your precision package?

The bottom line is that, everything else being equal (never is), the shooter who can narrow his condition bracket has a better chance of shooting a small group and big score than another shooter who uses the "poke and hope" technique.

As respectfully as I can say it, and I pray that no one is offended, few on this thread believe in reading the conditions in 1000 BR because -- they don't have any clue whatsoever how to get it done! There I have said it. Many of the prone shooters could not load precision match ammo if their life depended on it -- many of the BR shooters can't read more than "it sure is windy". Just a fact. I know because I was one of them.

If you (a collective "you") spend one day training with a world class wind reader (like John Whidden) at 1000 yards, it would change your thinking on the subject forever. You would learn more in that one session that you would ever think of learning in a life time of 1000 yard BR. The reason is that your would learn when to start shooting and when to stop. You would learn to start your record rounds based on data from your sighters when you would selected the narrow window. If you pick a .5 minute window to shoot in during a fast run, or you decide to make your fast run in a window that varries 2 minutes during that run (because you can't read the conditions), they you will pay the price at the target -- if you do not, you just got lucky.

Everyone please forgive me, but if you think you can shoot at 1000 yards, and max out your abilities to the last drop, without being able to read and select a narrow bracket window in which to make your run -- you are just wrong. And just because you don't have the skill set it does not make it OK.

BTW, any response to my post which says anything close to "well come beat me in 1000 yd BR" is not addressing the issue of improving your skill set to deal with Mother Nature who does not gave a dang about your equipment or the wood you won at your last match. Again, been there and done that.

Knowing what I know now, I wish I had been mentored by John Whidden when I shot 1000 yd BR as I would have been much better at that game.

Thanks for listening to my $.02,
Jim
 
Mike I was talking about the Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Benchrest club only the biggest 1000 yard club in the country if you have never heared of it, its on the East Coast were the WIND IS UNIQUE! That means being the only one of its kind. This is what we all at the club have been trying to say, The best have tryed it to no avail. Every time I've seen someone stop in the middle of there record string because they thought they seen something, they usually end up getting burnt. And Lynn wish I had John Whidden living next to me and showing me how to read the wind at our range.

Joe Salt
 
Joe
I don't have John Whidden living next door to me either.At our last match I asked Jery "The Champ" Tierney to give this website another chance in the hopes of getting some quality input on the forum.Apperantly the Williamsport crowd would rather chase him off than learn something.
Lynn aka Waterboy
 
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