barrel length

[kevinnevius]

Hi Kevin

I have a dumb question. I hear you say you set back the muzzle, is this a counter bore you are doing?

Thanks
Tony

Hi Tony!

No, not a counterbore, I take some length off and recrown. How much I remove depends on how ugly the testing is! LOL

Each time I reinstall the tuner / tube, and retest. I think it's a very labor intensive way to back into the success you have had with your formula!

All the best,

kev

 

[MIKECAMERON]

Mike:

Using smallbore prone as an example (it was here long before rimfire BR became popular, thru the "golden age" of paperbox Tenex), it could be argued that we are no more advanced (from an accuracy standpoint) than we were all those years ago. Most of the records set in the 60's and 70's still stand, in spite of the technical advancement in current equipment and ammunition - most of these records set with long, naked barrels using nothing but good gunsmithing and careful ammunition selection. Mr. Calfee was unfortunately not the first to discover a long barrel might shoot well.

Take for instance Mary Stidworthy's 50m anysight record, set in 1975 (400-40x, with an additional 145 consecutive x's), outdoors, in conditions. Personally, I would love to see our best BR shooters take a run at this from the bench. I am surly not saying it would be impossible to break, but you and I might be in a nursing home before it happens! LOL

The advantages of the use of a tuner are not lost in prone shooting, most of the top shooters use them in various configurations. They also utilize the best BR smiths, test as diligently at the manufacturers facilities (or on their own), and use the same barrels found in BR (the influence of BR on the sport has been dramatic)...........yet still these 40 year old records stand. I think (as you do) that we are well beyond the potential of those days, but considering some of the data, are we really?

In many years of building competitive prone rifles, I have on rare occasion found one that was competitive when initially tested - before any tuner or sight extension tube is added. I believe that it would be possible (although highly labor intensive) to set back the crown incrementally and eventually find a node (otherwise the above scenario would be impossible). And I don't believe the Stidworthy's used any gravity defying lapping (nor do I).

Food for thought, thanks for the post,

kev

Kevin you really need to bring one of your rifles to a ir 50/50 or ARA match and I think you may have a different opinion afterwards.BTW if you are referring to the 50 meter prone target if the center ring is the X then Ken Camper shot 150 straight x's this past weekend 116 of which touched the dead center of the target.I think you really don't have any idea of what kind of accuracy the benchrest rifles are required to be capable of, and in your quoted record it is possible it was more the person shooting than it was his equipment.There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that rifles 30 years ago couldn't compete in BR with the ones we shot today, I may be wrong but from the records I have seen I do not believe I am.

Mike Cameron

 

[PakRat]

Hi Tony!

No, not a counterbore, I take some length off and recrown. How much I remove depends on how ugly the testing is! LOL

Each time I reinstall the tuner / tube, and retest. I think it's a very labor intensive way to back into the success you have had with your formula!

All the best,

kev

Hi Kevin

I have followed your posts in the past with great interest. Have you tried installing an overly long bloop tube, and tried cutting it back to see the rifle comes in to tune that way?

I have been working with some 3P shooters and I understand the concept of the longer site radius the bloop tube provides as well as a tuning instrument.

Are the bloop tubes you use a standard length?

I appreciate the work you have done and enjoy your reports on it.

Have a great nite

Tony

 

[kevinnevius]

Kevin you really need to bring one of your rifles to a ir 50/50 or ARA match and I think you may have a different opinion afterwards.BTW if you are referring to the 50 meter prone target if the center ring is the X then Ken Camper shot 150 straight x's this past weekend 116 of which touched the dead center of the target.I think you really don't have any idea of what kind of accuracy the benchrest rifles are required to be capable of, and in your quoted record it is possible it was more the person shooting than it was his equipment.There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that rifles 30 years ago couldn't compete in BR with the ones we shot today, I may be wrong but from the records I have seen I do not believe I am.

Mike Cameron

Mike:

The mechanical accuracy of the rifle as a system is the same in both sports. Our targets are larger to include the limitations of a human’s ability to hold, but we (prone shooters) still require a rifle to produce the same mechanical accuracy you do.

My accuracy standard to be competitive in prone shooting for the last 20+ years (mechanical accuracy, from a bench, with as little human error as possible) has been .400” outside edge – aggregate accuracy for (10) five shot groups, in calm conditions, at 50 meters. If your system is not at or very near this standard, you will not win at the highest levels of the sport. The rifle I used in 2008 was a consistent .415” rifle.

This seems to correlate with a standard you can relate too (from Mr. Calfee, recently):

“Friend ifidned:

You've asked a question I'm not sure I have a good answer for......is there a group size standard that I use to deside if I will put my name on a gun? No....
But if I sat down and tested one of my rifles, or pistols, at 50 yards, and fired 10-five shot groups and measured them, I'd put my name on it, if it would agg .200" or under....

Your friend, Bill Calfee”

Prone shooters can tolerate no more inaccuracy that BR shooters Mike, we have the same expectations for our equipment as you do. And yes, the challenge I offered was intended to be “tounge in cheek”. If you completely remove the human hold error, I would expect Mr. Camper to shoot X’s all day long (especially INDOORS), did I mention she did it IN conditions?

Oh, and I would absolutely LOVE to try BR shooting, and fully expect to be completely humbled. Not because of my equipment, but because of my very limited benchrest skill. Care to sling up your benchrest rifle?

Take care,

kev

 

[kevinnevius]

Hi Kevin

I have followed your posts in the past with great interest. Have you tried installing an overly long bloop tube, and tried cutting it back to see the rifle comes in to tune that way?

I have been working with some 3P shooters and I understand the concept of the longer site radius the bloop tube provides as well as a tuning instrument.

Are the bloop tubes you use a standard length?

I appreciate the work you have done and enjoy your reports on it.

Have a great nite

Tony

Tony:

No, I have never tried what you suggest (but your success has me thinking about it VERY seriously!!)

Yes, the tubes are (generally) a standard length - setup for my preferences (weight, and sight radius). I have some flexibility regarding these variables, but weight is always an issue.

For the past several seasons, I use a light Hoehn tuner located out on the extension tube (which puts it several inches in front of the muzzle). I must admit, I have tested it with a ton of blanks, and find it somewhat insensitive.

Based on your experience, is the overall length of the system more influential than the adjustment of mass in the middle of the extension tube?

I am really interested in your formula, and apologize I have had no time to get in touch with you and pursue it. I hope you can make some time for me in the near future though!

Thanks for the post,

kev

 

[Vibe]

Oh, and I would absolutely LOVE to try BR shooting, and fully expect to be completely humbled. Not because of my equipment, but because of my very limited benchrest skill. Care to sling up your benchrest rifle?

Take care,

kev

Kevin
I had a leather coat that fit back in college and played at shooting 3p. Those old 9 pound peep sighted Mossbergs still did better than I could. I'm afraid that my best prone score was a 98 - 6x on the 10 bull 50 ft score target (12 bulls - 10 score/2 sighters). I suspect that one of your biggest adjustments to BR will be not HOLDING the rifle at all. It was a very hard habit for me to break.

 

[blades]

Well Vibe not holding rifle is not always true some liked to be caressed a bit. Nothing is set in stone.

 

[tim]

Mike:

The mechanical accuracy of the rifle as a system is the same in both sports. Our targets are larger to include the limitations of a human’s ability to hold, but we (prone shooters) still require a rifle to produce the same mechanical accuracy you do.

My accuracy standard to be competitive in prone shooting for the last 20+ years (mechanical accuracy, from a bench, with as little human error as possible) has been .400” outside edge – aggregate accuracy for (10) five shot groups, in calm conditions, at 50 meters. If your system is not at or very near this standard, you will not win at the highest levels of the sport. The rifle I used in 2008 was a consistent .415” rifle.

This seems to correlate with a standard you can relate too (from Mr. Calfee, recently):

“Friend ifidned:

You've asked a question I'm not sure I have a good answer for......is there a group size standard that I use to deside if I will put my name on a gun? No....
But if I sat down and tested one of my rifles, or pistols, at 50 yards, and fired 10-five shot groups and measured them, I'd put my name on it, if it would agg .200" or under....

Your friend, Bill Calfee”

Prone shooters can tolerate no more inaccuracy that BR shooters Mike, we have the same expectations for our equipment as you do. And yes, the challenge I offered was intended to be “tounge in cheek”. If you completely remove the human hold error, I would expect Mr. Camper to shoot X’s all day long (especially INDOORS), did I mention she did it IN conditions?

Oh, and I would absolutely LOVE to try BR shooting, and fully expect to be completely humbled. Not because of my equipment, but because of my very limited benchrest skill. Care to sling up your benchrest rifle?

Take care,

kev

Upstate NY is not that far away Kevin, any time you want to break up you're training schedule, come shoot a match. You're welcome to use top flight equipment and meet a few guys, I could probably be persuaded to throw in a couple boxes of good stuff.
Heck, we could probably get the whole youth position team to detail the vehicle when you're here.

 

[PakRat]

Good Evening Kevin

My experience with 3P started and ended in 68-69 when I was a freshman in high school. I managed to finish the school competition in second, but not good enough for rifle team. My older brothers were part of the 1959 National Championship Team. They were very good shooters.

I own a Kimber 82G that has been my test bed for a lot of the tuning process. Maybe I should play around with the bloop tube and see what I come up with. Its not a world class set up, but should be able to show me trends.

Will shooting with a scope affect the outcome? I shoot irons at 25Y OK, but not sure about seeing well at 50Y. Damned old eyes

I am currently waiting on some feedback on a tune that is being tried on a 3P rifle overseas.

Now if I could just figure out this air rifle thing.........then there's CF.

Have a great nite

Tony

 

[MIKECAMERON]

Mike:

The mechanical accuracy of the rifle as a system is the same in both sports. Our targets are larger to include the limitations of a human’s ability to hold, but we (prone shooters) still require a rifle to produce the same mechanical accuracy you do.

My accuracy standard to be competitive in prone shooting for the last 20+ years (mechanical accuracy, from a bench, with as little human error as possible) has been .400” outside edge – aggregate accuracy for (10) five shot groups, in calm conditions, at 50 meters. If your system is not at or very near this standard, you will not win at the highest levels of the sport. The rifle I used in 2008 was a consistent .415” rifle.

This seems to correlate with a standard you can relate too (from Mr. Calfee, recently):

“Friend ifidned:

You've asked a question I'm not sure I have a good answer for......is there a group size standard that I use to deside if I will put my name on a gun? No....
But if I sat down and tested one of my rifles, or pistols, at 50 yards, and fired 10-five shot groups and measured them, I'd put my name on it, if it would agg .200" or under....

Your friend, Bill Calfee”

Prone shooters can tolerate no more inaccuracy that BR shooters Mike, we have the same expectations for our equipment as you do. And yes, the challenge I offered was intended to be “tounge in cheek”. If you completely remove the human hold error, I would expect Mr. Camper to shoot X’s all day long (especially INDOORS), did I mention she did it IN conditions?

Oh, and I would absolutely LOVE to try BR shooting, and fully expect to be completely humbled. Not because of my equipment, but because of my very limited benchrest skill. Care to sling up your benchrest rifle?

Take care,

kev

No and because I just couldn't physically shoot with you fellows, I am in awe of what you folks do. I still think (and I am not trying to insult you truly) you would be very surprised what kind of accuracy it takes to WIN in BR. I have never said what the lady did wasn't a truly awesome feat(ill bet the conditions were pretty good) but we in BR with your target can shoot x'x all day long with no doubt in my mind in CONDITIONS. Come on out and shoot with us sometime Kevin you will really enjoy it and you might even come back with some new ideas.

Mike Cameron

 

[Vibe]

That's true Mike. To put it in perspective, the 50 foot 3P target and the 50 yard BR target are very similar in size.

 

[TangoTwo]

Vibe,

That would be true of the US target. On the international target the dot is the 10 ring.

Ken Henderson

 

[kevinnevius]

Upstate NY is not that far away Kevin, any time you want to break up you're training schedule, come shoot a match. You're welcome to use top flight equipment and meet a few guys, I could probably be persuaded to throw in a couple boxes of good stuff.
Heck, we could probably get the whole youth position team to detail the vehicle when you're here.

Tim:

I promise you that someday I will make it up to see you. I just had a similar conversation with Sprague this week (I am doing some work for him)........he reminded me that I can't lay on my belly forever!!

Anyhow, I have a second Swindlehurst in the safe doing absolutely nothing...........sounds like a BR project to me!

I would love to see you and the guys shoot, and some guidance would certainly be appreciated (the car detailing would be a bonus though!!)

All the best,

kev

 

[kevinnevius]

No and because I just couldn't physically shoot with you fellows, I am in awe of what you folks do. I still think (and I am not trying to insult you truly) you would be very surprised what kind of accuracy it takes to WIN in BR. I have never said what the lady did wasn't a truly awesome feat(ill bet the conditions were pretty good) but we in BR with your target can shoot x'x all day long with no doubt in my mind in CONDITIONS. Come on out and shoot with us sometime Kevin you will really enjoy it and you might even come back with some new ideas.

Mike Cameron

Mike:

Thanks for the post, and I want you to know I was not trying to insult you in any way either. I am also in awe of what you and many others in the sport of BR have accomplished (with raw accuracy and shooting skill, and equipment innovation). What has been done in BR has truly influenced all of the RF sports in general. I honestly never thought I would see the day when muzzle tuners were common place in prone competitions (but they have been for several years now - in fact, it's pretty un-common NOT to see them!).

I honestly wish that there was a 100 yard stage in benchrest........tuning a rifle to be competitive at two distances has always been a challenge (and we could use some help!).

I should also mention that I did not intend to minimize the accomplishments of any BR competitor with my previous post - I hope it could not be taken that way. Part of my testing regimen for qualifying ammunition / barrels involves bench shooting on the PSL target (a completely humbling experience!).

Regarding shooting BR (as I mentioned to Tim above), I would love to get involved, and plan to do so. I turned 50 this year, and find it more and more difficult to try to compete with the "kids" each year. I am not a fan of "F Class"........but I do enjoy BR (I have to have some reason for owning all these rifles or my wife will insist I start selling them!)

I must admit though, that I am a little confused regarding the divisions (ARA, IR50/50...etc).

Thanks for the post,

kev

 

[MIKECAMERON]

Kevin

The simple explaination to the different regimens i.e. ARA, IR 50/50. RBA ect ect is that a bunch of guys got together and started one of them and a set of those guys got pissed off at the others and split off and started a different regimen, then the same thing happened again to start the third, now that is extremely simplified but you get the idea I hope.

Mike Cameron

 

[tim]

Tim:

I promise you that someday I will make it up to see you. I just had a similar conversation with Sprague this week (I am doing some work for him)........he reminded me that I can't lay on my belly forever!!

Anyhow, I have a second Swindlehurst in the safe doing absolutely nothing...........sounds like a BR project to me!

I would love to see you and the guys shoot, and some guidance would certainly be appreciated (the car detailing would be a bonus though!!)

All the best,

kev

Come and shoot. Terry says you can bring his gun back and kill two birds with one stone. Now there's an offer.