Barrel Fluting

E

Earl Horgeshime

Member
My eyesight is deteriorating and I find that I need a more powerful (Heavier) scope. Going forward, all my barrels will need fluting to make weight. I have only used Rustlick 5050 water soluble oil when fluting barrels. It worked well for the few barrels that I have fluted. I am out of it now so I would like to know what you are using and / or any recommendations. I already have the scopes so going for a lighter one is not a viable option.
 
Question

Not really replying to the topic, but I have a question...
Does fluting, on a bored barrel deteriorates the bore?
So, should fluting be done before finalising the bore?
Or doesn't matter?
 
PedroS said:
Not really replying to the topic, but I have a question...
Does fluting, on a bored barrel deteriorates the bore?
So, should fluting be done before finalising the bore?
Or doesn't matter?
Click to expand...

I cant speak for others but my experience is that fluting (8 or 9 barrels) has never changed the way the barrel shoots. My process is to shoot the barrel and find out if it is competitive before I flute it. I did flute 1 barrel that didnt shoot competitively - It still didnt shoot after I fluted it.
 
PedroS said:
Not really replying to the topic, but I have a question...
Does fluting, on a bored barrel deteriorates the bore?
So, should fluting be done before finalising the bore?
Or doesn't matter?
Click to expand...

The general consensus has been that on button rifled barrels, anything you do to the OD that involves removing metal can cause the ID to change.

The big “if” is how much, and does it affect the barrels accuracy potential.

There are those that say that they can feel feel the change by slugging a barrel.

The manufacturers of cut rifled barrels insist removing metal from the OD has no affect on the ID.
 
I might be wrong but I believe OEM button shops will often flute prior to finish lapping.
 
Every metallurgist that I have spoken with all claim that flutting a barrel introduces stresses than can never be removed by cryo treating or any other treating. I guess the question is what do the new stresses do to accuracy.
 
firearmsunlimit said:
Every metallurgist that I have spoken with all claim that flutting a barrel introduces stresses than can never be removed by cryo treating or any other treating. I guess the question is what do the new stresses do to accuracy.
Click to expand...

Cryo as a stress relief? Did your Metallurgist say that?
Some of you remember Skip's 200 yard .099 5 shot record several years ago at the Phoenix range. Skip shot nothing but barrels that he fluted. That barrel was a button rifled Shilen.
 
I would like to know who that metallurgist was that said that. I visited with the folks at Kreiger several years ago and they said it makes no difference. My experience as well as several shooters that I know agree that "if the barrel didn't shoot competitively before it was fluted, it wont shoot competitively after it is fluted." They also agree that "if the barrel shoots well before it is fluted, it will shoot well after it is fluted."
My original question has not been addressed - What do you use when fluting a barrel - cutting oil or coolant? What brand?
 
Butch Lambert said:
Cryo as a stress relief? Did your Metallurgist say that?
Some of you remember Skip's 200 yard .099 5 shot record several years ago at the Phoenix range. Skip shot nothing but barrels that he fluted. That barrel was a button rifled Shilen.
Click to expand...

Yes, Cryo is for stress relieving. What did you think it is for? All firearms are produced with internal stresses. As the metal is bored, reamed and machined, mechanical stresses are created. As forgings and castings cool, the differing rates of temperature change introduce residual stresses. Cryogenic processing can even benchrest-quality barrels by relieving the internal stresses with no risk of damage to the barrel or the action of a fine gun.
 
Butch Lambert said:
Cryo as a stress relief? Did your Metallurgist say that?
Some of you remember Skip's 200 yard .099 5 shot record several years ago at the Phoenix range. Skip shot nothing but barrels that he fluted. That barrel was a button rifled Shilen.
Click to expand...
Never seen Tony Boyer, Les Bruno, Dwight Scott or Walt Berger shooting a fluted barrel. Why would you guess that is?
 
firearmsunlimit said:
Never seen Tony Boyer, Les Bruno, Dwight Scott or Walt Berger shooting a fluted barrel. Why would you guess that is?
Click to expand...

Young feller, has any of those fellers shot a .099-200 yard target in registered competition? No they haven't. Why would you guess that is? I know that you are very knowledgeable, but refer to me a scientific paper that says Cryo is a stress relief. Also, what barrel makers are doing this now. Tell me who does cryo on barrels and what is their method.
Thanks
 
Mr AZ, I don't flute my barrels, but you may read this.

Here's what Lilja, maker of world class rifle barrels, has to say about cyrogenic treatment:

"The cryogenic treating of barrels at a temperature of -300 degrees below zero [77K] has been a hot topic of discussion lately. Our short answer is that it will not harm your barrel but we are not completely convinced of all of the benefits claimed by some. The only benefits that we feel are likely to result from the treatment are possibly a longer barrel life and a slight increase in machinability."

Claims for increased accuracy through stress relief are not founded in our opinion. When barrels are button rifled no material is removed, it is just displaced. This causes stresses to be formed in the steel. If these stresses are not removed problems will result. These negative conditions include warping of the barrel during other machining operations, an increase in the bore diameter towards the muzzle end of the barrel during the contouring phase, and in the extreme, lengthwise splitting of the barrel. Also, if there are stresses remaining in the barrel they can be slowly released as a barrel warms up during firing. This causes the barrel to actually move during the course of shooting, causing inaccuracy."

In our testing we have found that the only effective means to completely remove the types of stresses introduced during rifling are with conventional heat treating using elevated temperatures. The -300 degree treatment alone will not remove these stresses. We have been told by a knowledgeable metallurgist that the deep cold treatment will, at best, remove up to 6% of the remaining stresses in the type of steel used for rifle barrels. The key words here are remaining stresses. In other words if the barrel was not stress relieved conventionally, then only 6% of the original stress will be removed. If the barrel has been treated conventionally with heat and then brought through the -300 degree cycle, up to 6% of any remaining stresses could be removed by the cold treatment. We do know through our testing that the cold treatment alone will not remove any significant amount of stress and that the problems outlined above concerning stress will remain in the barrel."

So, because of the very limited amount of stress that could be removed with the cold treatment (if the barrel has been properly stress relieved with heat as our barrels are) we do not believe that there can be much if any accuracy benefit to the -300 degree treatment of our barrels. It is for these reasons that we feel the cold process has very little potential for increasing the accuracy of our barrels. In our opinion, other than the removal of these stresses, there are no other mechanical factors involved that could benefit accuracy in a rifle barrel, resulting from a heat treating operation, either hot or cold."

For reasons not completely understood however there may be an increase in the wear resistance of the steel. This type of wear however does not contribute greatly to barrel erosion. We invite you to read our comments on this type of barrel wear in the question regarding the use of moly coated bullets."

Another possible side benefit to the freezing process is a slight increase in its machinability."

You might know that the better barrel makers stress relieve their barrels after rifling. I have been involved in testing and machining cryo barrels. I can say they do machine better. I also can post more info on this or can email it to you.
 
My point exactly. I added the verbage about Cryo and purported stress relieving in response to a comment questioning who said cryo was intended for stress relieving.
 
Butch Lambert said:
Young feller, has any of those fellers shot a .099-200 yard target in registered competition? No they haven't. Why would you guess that is? I know that you are very knowledgeable, but refer to me a scientific paper that says Cryo is a stress relief. Also, what barrel makers are doing this now. Tell me who does cryo on barrels and what is their method.
Thanks
Click to expand...

First, I am probably older than you so please don't refer to me as "young feller."

On June 8th, 2013, Michael Stinnett shot a new world record, surpassing a group that held the record for 40 years. 5 shots were fired at a distance of 100 yards. This record was shot at the North Texas Shooters Association NBRSA match in Denton, TX. That 5 shots were fired was verified by use of a moving backer, and the .0077 IN group size was an average of the measurements from multiple judges. THE RIFLE THAT HE USED TO SHOOT THIS GROUP WAS NOT FLUTED - PERIOD.

As it relates to the intended use of Cryo treatment you can do your own research as there are plenty of publications and advertisements available on line.

In case you are unaware, Tony Boyer, Les Bruno, Walt Berger and Dwight Scott have all been inducted into the Benchrest Hall of Fame as a result of their lifetime match scoring. I don't see any guy named Butch listed in the top ten.
 
nor do we see yours...

and i live in sun city

firearmsunlimit said:
In case you are unaware, Tony Boyer, Les Bruno, Walt Berger and Dwight Scott have all been inducted into the Benchrest Hall of Fame as a result of their lifetime match scoring. I don't see any guy named Butch listed in the top ten.
Click to expand...
 
firearmsunlimit said:
First, I am probably older than you so please don't refer to me as "young feller."

On June 8th, 2013, Michael Stinnett shot a new world record, surpassing a group that held the record for 40 years. 5 shots were fired at a distance of 100 yards. This record was shot at the North Texas Shooters Association NBRSA match in Denton, TX. That 5 shots were fired was verified by use of a moving backer, and the .0077 IN group size was an average of the measurements from multiple judges. THE RIFLE THAT HE USED TO SHOOT THIS GROUP WAS NOT FLUTED - PERIOD.

As it relates to the intended use of Cryo treatment you can do your own research as there are plenty of publications and advertisements available on line.

In case you are unaware, Tony Boyer, Les Bruno, Walt Berger and Dwight Scott have all been inducted into the Benchrest Hall of Fame as a result of their lifetime match scoring. I don't see any guy named Butch listed in the top ten.
Click to expand...

Young feller, sorry I pissed in your Post Toasties. If you happen to be over 80 I will hereinafter refer you as an old Fart. You are kinda like a couple libs that I know, cherry picking items. I won't say that you are not in the HOF as you choose to hide behind a pseudonym. You may be there, but do you know why they don't use fluted barrels and why Skip did? By the way, what does Mike Stinnett's World Record have to do with fluting coolant or cutting oil?
You might know that I do flute a few barrels, but not competition barrels. I do think 99% of folks that like them fluted, like it for the bling. I don't remember recommending fluting, just pointing out Skip's record. Yeah, It was shot in your back yard.
Now, what else can we fling on the wall and see if it sticks.
 
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Butch Lambert said:
Young feller, sorry I pissed in your Post Toasties. If you happen to be over 80 I will hereinafter refer you as an old Fart. You are kinda like a couple libs that I know, cherry picking items. I won't say that you are not in the HOF as you choose to hide behind a pseudonym. You may be there, but do you know why they don't use fluted barrels and why Skip did? By the way, what does Mike Stinnett's World Record have to do with fluting coolant or cutting oil?
You might know that I do flute a few barrels, but not competition barrels. I do think 99% of folks that like them fluted, like it for the bling. I don't remember recommending fluting, just pointing out Skip's record. Yeah, It was shot in your back yard.
Now, what else can we fling on the wall and see if it sticks.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on the barrel fluting although it does reduce weight and facilitate barrel cooling. I just don't see it in being used in the benchrest community.
 
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