barrel contour

is there any difference in the accuracy of a light or heavy varmint contour verses a palmea contour they use in the camp perry type shoots given that you use the sme cartrige ,say the 6mm br improved or a 6mm ppc.
gary b
 
I think it depends in large part upon barrel length. If all three contours are 20 inches long, there will not be much difference. At 30 inches, the difference will be much greater.

I have a blueprinted Remington 700 action with a Krieger barrel chambered in .260 Remington. It is a Remington varmint contour. I asked for a 28 inch finished length. I got 30 inches. It has never shot like it should, regardless of which stock it wears or how it's bedded. I'm no looking to have it shortened to 27 inches.
 
FWIW
I recently (2 seasons ago) started using tuners and had Krieger make me up a few modified Palma contours to use in LV. The results have been outstanding on both my own LV (2019 SOY & Calif State Championship)
as well as the LV owned by the shooter who finished second. Obviously a small sample size, but 4 barrels in I’m a convert.
With this contour you can throw a 6+ ounce tuner on it and still finish at 22” or more.
I also believe but have no way of proving that the thinner profile because it has more “flex” is easier to tune, with a wider tune window.
The tuner experts (Mike, Gene, Richard, etc.) might weigh in on this.
JMO worth what I charge.
Greg
 
FWIW
I recently (2 seasons ago) started using tuners and had Krieger make me up a few modified Palma contours to use in LV. The results have been outstanding on both my own LV (2019 SOY & Calif State Championship)
as well as the LV owned by the shooter who finished second. Obviously a small sample size, but 4 barrels in I’m a convert.
With this contour you can throw a 6+ ounce tuner on it and still finish at 22” or more.
I also believe but have no way of proving that the thinner profile because it has more “flex” is easier to tune, with a wider tune window.
The tuner experts (Mike, Gene, Richard, etc.) might weigh in on this.
JMO worth what I charge.
Greg

I agree Greg. I much prefer a barrel that shows me tune, or lack of it, over a barrel that is overly stiff by comparison. Fwiw.
It's the same logic as using a tuner of say 6-7 ounces.
 
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Maybe you could...

tell me if I am off-topic, but here it goes:
I am familiar with reverse taper barrels, used mainly with rimfire calibers (.22LR), the logic being that it slows down the whip displayed by all barrels when firing a round.
The velocity of those rimfire cartridges is so much less than most center-fire calibers. Would this difference in velocity negate any good that a reverse barrel profile have if chambered in said center-fire caliber?

Phil aka tazzman
 
tell me if I am off-topic, but here it goes:
I am familiar with reverse taper barrels, used mainly with rimfire calibers (.22LR), the logic being that it slows down the whip displayed by all barrels when firing a round.
The velocity of those rimfire cartridges is so much less than most center-fire calibers. Would this difference in velocity negate any good that a reverse barrel profile have if chambered in said center-fire caliber?

Phil aka tazzman

I plan to try one when I can get a bbl, hopefully soon. Same theory applies, though and I expect it to work fine. The hard part is fitting within size specs for short range rules on barrel dimensions. It'll need to have a radius in front of the straight breech section, similar to a palma contour.
I've done a similar thing by machining the barrel od down about 8 inches behind the muzzle, creating a hinge point, if you will. I don't recall the exact dimensions but it was a hv contour and I reduced the diameter by about .250 for roughly 2 inches, again, about 8 inches behind the muzzle. It shot very well but I want to try it with a true reverse taper.
 
There is no doubt

a palma contour with a 4 to 6 oz tuner has a wider tune window than a Lv-HV coutour. I have tested this a lot and it repeats every time. It all depends on what type of shooter you are. A runner or picker. If you are a runner this setup isn't for you! You will have vertical in the group because the bbl doesn't have enough time to settle down. If you shoot slower it works great. I am a runner when conditions permit and I just can't live with the vertical.

Richard
 
a palma contour with a 4 to 6 oz tuner has a wider tune window than a Lv-HV coutour. I have tested this a lot and it repeats every time. It all depends on what type of shooter you are. A runner or picker. If you are a runner this setup isn't for you! You will have vertical in the group because the bbl doesn't have enough time to settle down. If you shoot slower it works great. I am a runner when conditions permit and I just can't live with the vertical.

Richard

In this part of the country, knowing when to run and when to pick is as important as doing either one well. I remember talking with you about this and I know I was very impressed with how fast you were shooting. Of course it was relative to group size or something. Do you mind sharing those details that I can't recall? I was impressed with your numbers.

That said, it would be interesting to calculate or measure the difference in the vibrational frequency between say a lv and a hv barrel at different lengths and see how those changes correlate to running vs picking in real time. I also have to wonder how you are only getting vertical, if that's indeed the case. I have to wonder if it's the extra weigh that could cause only vertical, when tuners do change group size and shape on both vertical and horizontal planes. It seems unlikely that shooting too fast would only correlate to vertical when the bullet could be leaving the barrel at literally anywhere in its vibrational oscillation.
 
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In this part of the country, knowing when to run and when to pick is as important as doing either one well. I remember talking with you about this and I know I was very impressed with how fast you were shooting. Of course it was relative to group size or something. Do you mind sharing those details that I can't recall? I was impressed with your numbers.

That said, it would be interesting to calculate or measure the difference in the vibrational frequency between say a lv and a hv barrel at different lengths and see how those changes correlate to running vs picking in real time. I also have to wonder how you are only getting vertical, if that's indeed the case. I have to wonder if it's the extra weigh that could cause only vertical, when tuners do change group size and shape on both vertical and horizontal planes. It seems unlikely that shooting too fast would only correlate to vertical when the bullet could be leaving the barrel at literally anywhere in its vibrational oscillation.


too bad a guy couldn't DAMP that somehow...... maybe with something heavy, and powdery.......hmmmmm......
 
I can give you a even better

example of running fast making vertical. My rail which has a 1.350 bbl around 21" With a beggs style tuner with a weight of 6 oz you can run fast and shoot small. Shot a .15X agg with this setup last year at a nbrsa match, so I'm not talking about "backyard testing" down at the range. Anyway, this same bbl with a heavy tuner will shoot a .5 of pure vertical at 200 when running, slow down some and it will shoot a dot. Not all tuners have an influence on the H, but they can if the basic load is not tuned properly. And for AL, you can't damp out V from running with heavy powder, tried that.
See the exact same thing with the bag guns also.

Richard
 
example of running fast making vertical. My rail which has a 1.350 bbl around 21" With a beggs style tuner with a weight of 6 oz you can run fast and shoot small. Shot a .15X agg with this setup last year at a nbrsa match, so I'm not talking about "backyard testing" down at the range. Anyway, this same bbl with a heavy tuner will shoot a .5 of pure vertical at 200 when running, slow down some and it will shoot a dot. Not all tuners have an influence on the H, but they can if the basic load is not tuned properly. And for AL, you can't damp out V from running with heavy powder, tried that.
See the exact same thing with the bag guns also.

Richard

There have been numerous national championships won and world records set with a tuner thats design is quite dissenting from your findings. One such record is Barts 600 yard .3xx group. I believe he's a runner and figured out how to tune out the vertical with this same tuner.

Rather than arguing with you, I'll just say congrats on your .150 agg and let's just agree to disagree. The records speak for themselves. I'm not sure what the backyard range comment was about but I'm fortunate enough to have a good place to test in my backyard. It's been a big help and it was a factor in my championship win last year. So yes, I compete at registered matches, too. Shooting at both, I have been able to determine that tuners work exactly the same at a match as they do on my backyard range. In fact, I've been able to confirm this with some fancy equipment, like accelerometers and oscilloscopes. Those tools and a nice backyard range allow me to cut through a lot of internet chaffe.
 
Your missing the point

There have been numerous national championships won and world records set with a tuner thats design is quite dissenting from your findings. One such record is Barts 600 yard .3xx group. I believe he's a runner and figured out how to tune out the vertical with this same tuner.

Rather than arguing with you, I'll just say congrats on your .150 agg and let's just agree to disagree. The records speak for themselves. I'm not sure what the backyard range comment was about but I'm fortunate enough to have a good place to test in my backyard. It's been a big help and it was a factor in my championship win last year. So yes, I compete at registered matches, too. Shooting at both, I have been able to determine that tuners work exactly the same at a match as they do on my backyard range. In fact, I've been able to confirm this with some fancy equipment, like accelerometers and oscilloscopes. Those tools and a nice backyard range allow me to cut through a lot of internet chaffe.

first, I meant nothing bad by the backyard range comment. I have Charlene's Meadow just 100 yds away from the shop and test there about every day. If it won't shoot there I am sure not taking it to a match. I know about testing equipment and also realize what goes into getting valid data. Your right however that we don't agree on some of the results, but that's ok, we both agree that tuners work. There is just more than one way to get the results we want. The best test of all is the target. I tell the guys when teaching tuning classes that the rifle is speaking to you on the target, learn what it's telling you.
Stay well during trying time and wish you the best of luck.

Richard
 
first, I meant nothing bad by the backyard range comment. I have Charlene's Meadow just 100 yds away from the shop and test there about every day. If it won't shoot there I am sure not taking it to a match. I know about testing equipment and also realize what goes into getting valid data. Your right however that we don't agree on some of the results, but that's ok, we both agree that tuners work. There is just more than one way to get the results we want. The best test of all is the target. I tell the guys when teaching tuning classes that the rifle is speaking to you on the target, learn what it's telling you.
Stay well during trying time and wish you the best of luck.

Richard

Yes, trying times indeed. May we all stay well and this virus die out very soon and a vaccine be made that can render it harmless.
Good shooting!--Mike
 
Back on subject..I've been shooting my own contour barrel and won last years UBR Nats with it. Several are reporting the same I've been seeing from it. ABC has the contour program on file and is called the "Ezell Tuner BR" contour. It's really not far from a standard LV but I want to test the reverse taper and then work with something closer to a HV that is more tuner sensitive as well. There's a ton of confusion about barrel stiffness/contours. Case in point...most people believe that a 1.250 is super stiff. Per inch, it is but length affects barrel stiffness faster than diameter. For example, a 28" 1.25 straight is actually less stiff than a 24" hv or a 21" Lv. I need to double check my numbers to be precise but those numbers stand out as common examples that I have compared. Lilja has a great calculator for barrel stiffnes..very interesting to play with. The stiffness calculator is part of his barrel weight calculator program.

Here's a link
https://riflebarrels.com/computer-software/

Nevertheless, it's quite interesting to plug different numbers into it and see what it spits out. When I first started testing tuners, I made a fixture to hold a barrel and measured muzzle deflection induced by a weight attached near the muzzle, with a test indicator. This program does that for you.

Several people have known for years that their lv will shoot right with their hv and others have played with Palma contours as well. Bottom line is, there seems to be a concensus among those people that to a large degree, smaller barrels can and do shoot right with heavier ones. My approach is more along the lines of finding a combination that makes weight and tunes easier and with a wider tune window, much along the same lines as a tuner does.

Barrel whip gets discussed from time to time with a negative connotation. To a point, barrel whip is a good thing, not a bad thing. I can't tune out what I can't see on target so by adding weight at the muzzle or using a less stiff contour barrel, there is more muzzle deflection(or whip)..and it shows up on target with repeatabilty. The increased muzzle deflection simply makes tune, or lack of it, more apparent on target. That alone makes knowing how and when to make a tuner(or load) adjustment more recognizable. That's the bottom line. But there is the added benefit of a wider tune window due to a less stiff barrel, or one with a tuner, vibrating at a lower frequency. That's just a fancy way of saying that it's vibrating slower..with wider nodes and space between nodes. So, it shows tune more apparently on the target and doesn't fall in or out of tune as rapidly as a stiffer barrel. In simple terms, that's what a tuner does, plus gives the ability to change tune without changing the load. More later, if there is interest here.
 
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Back on subject..I've been shooting my own contour barrel and won last years UBR Nats with it. Several are reporting the same I've been seeing from it. ABC has the contour program on file and is called the "Ezell Tuner BR" contour. It's really not far from a standard LV but I want to test the reverse taper and then work with something closer to a HV that is more tuner sensitive as well. There's a ton of confusion about barrel stiffness/contours. Case in point...most people believe that a 1.250 is super stiff. Per inch, it is but length affects barrel stiffness faster than diameter. For example, a 28" 1.25 straight is actually less stiff than a 24" hv or a 21" Lv. I need to double check my numbers to be precise but those numbers stand out as common examples that I have compared. Lilja has a great calculator for barrel stiffnes..very interesting to play with. The stiffness calculator is part of his barrel weight calculator program.

Here's a link
https://riflebarrels.com/computer-software/

Nevertheless, it's quite interesting to plug different numbers into it and see what it spits out. When I first started testing tuners, I made a fixture to hold a barrel and measured muzzle deflection induced by a weight attached near the muzzle, with a test indicator. This program does that for you.

Several people have known for years that their lv will shoot right with their hv and others have played with Palma contours as well. Bottom line is, there seems to be a concensus among those people that to a large degree, smaller barrels can and do shoot right with heavier ones. My approach is more along the lines of finding a combination that makes weight and tunes easier and with a wider tune window, much along the same lines as a tuner does.

Barrel whip gets discussed from time to time with a negative connotation. To a point, barrel whip is a good thing, not a bad thing. I can't tune out what I can't see on target so by adding weight at the muzzle or using a less stiff contour barrel, there is more muzzle deflection(or whip)..and it shows up on target with repeatabilty. The increased muzzle deflection simply makes tune, or lack of it, more apparent on target. That alone makes knowing how and when to make a tuner(or load) adjustment more recognizable. That's the bottom line. But there is the added benefit of a wider tune window due to a less stiff barrel, or one with a tuner, vibrating at a lower frequency. That's just a fancy way of saying that it's vibrating slower..with wider nodes and space between nodes. So, it shows tune more apparently on the target and doesn't fall in or out of tune as rapidly as a stiffer barrel. In simple terms, that's what a tuner does, plus gives the ability to change tune without changing the load. More later, if there is interest here.

I think you've nailed it Mike,

and I'll read anything you choose to post.
 
While barrel stiffness is a factor in node width and tunability, it's remarkable how predictable it is with my tuner. So much so, that I look for and expect there to be four marks between completely in tune to completely out of tune...on a typical short range rifle and barrel. I can even predict group size and shape at each mark within that range. I say that because there are several lengths and contours that fit with and are commonly used in short range...Like 19-1/2"23" LV barrels to 22-26" hv contours. Between those contours, I expect to see basically the same tuner mark values. When we step up to more popular long range lengths and contours, such as 28-30" HV and 1.250 straights, tuner value changes, but just a little bit., to typically five marks from in tune to completely out of tune. So, while stiffness does matter enough to quantify in this regard and on target, it's still a relatively small amount. But if you run the numbers through the stiffness calculator, it makes sense that there really isn't a huge difference there either. Keep in mind that with my current tuner, one mark is equal to .001" of tuner travel.

Now, lets say we start with a load that is giving us 3,000fps at 50° and as temp rises to say, 75°, it now gives us 3,020fps. Reasonable numbers IME, but I use them just as much for easy math...
So, that 20fps increase is equal to .6% velocity increase.
Lets also say that the bullet is in the barrel for nominally 1.5 milliseconds at 3000fps. That's a pretty tiny amount of time, I think we will agree. But, at 3,020fps, it's in the borefor less time...for .6% of 1.5 milliseconds less time! Now were talking REALLY tiny! So the bullet is reaching the muzzle sooner in time, right? How do we bring it back to perfect tune? We speed the vibrational frequency up by, guess what... .6%!! So it's calculable and tuners aren't voodoo, afterall!

That's relevant because a stiffer barrel vibrates at a higher freqency...or faster, with less space and time between nodes. A less stiff barrel, slower, with wider nodes that are spaces further apart. This makes staying in tune easier and less dramatic, to a degree. I mean, the less stiff barrel deflects more...or has more INITIAL amplitude.
I want to stop and clarify this statement before moving on. Physics teaches us that when we add weight to the muzzle that amplitude is decreased. This is true..OVER TIME! So yes, amplitude does decay faster over a period, netting a reduced amplitude during a wider time frame...But we're dealing with nominally 1.5 milliseconds and the amplitude is increased by barrel droop, even before we pull the trigger! Hopefully, we're together on this, because it can rightfully be a point of contention. Just remember that we are dealing with vibration for a VERY short period of time.
Back to my point about more muzzle deflection being a good thing...Since I can't tune for what I can't see on target, a muzzle that deflects more, make my "out of tune" groups bigger than they would be without a weight at the muzzle. That sounds bad but it's not, because I can't tune for what I can't see on the target, especially in real world match conditions. This is true whether you use a tuner or a barrel that is less stiff..same, same, in most regards, except the tuner is adjustable, at the bench.

I've been wanting to talk about this and want to while it's fresh on my mind and I'll stop for now....and I don't mean to make this thread all about tuners. It's just that barrel stiffness is a key in how they do what they do.

Anyway...There are two camps about how to tune when planning to use a tuner. One says to tune the load to the rifle before putting the tuner on. The other is to do load work up as normal, with the tuner on but don't touch it...forget it's there.

BOTH WAYS WORK!

Oh but how? Easy..The best way to look at things is, as the barrel moving in a simple, one dimensional sine wave pattern, where the nodes just appear the same...over and over again, repeating. Yes, there's more going on but the tuner being at the end of the barrel is adjusting the average of everything happening behind it.
Now, REPEATING is the key word because that's what takes place and it's how doing load work up works either way..on or off. Because the barrel crosses a sweet spot over and over again. Again, only .004-.005" tuner travel from dotting up to worse than you ever thought it could shoot....then it starts over, and over, and over..fore all intents and purposes her, forever.
It crosses these sweet spots that we call nodes with a tuner or without. My tuner lowers the frequency by nominally 30% over no tuner, yet it works both ways? Yes! The barrel crosses these sweet spots without any weight, or even a net loss of weight...as it does with the tuner but the nodes are about 30% further apart due to the lower frequency created by simply having a weight at the end of the barrel. Long story short, if you do load work up without the tuner on, you're loading to a node that shoots but is about 30% from the one where it will shoot the same way within about four marks at most, with the tuner. Is that clear? The sine wave example is the way to think about it...Bullet exit happens, ideally, just prior to the vertical apex of the barrel swing...with the tuner or without it. The fact that it works both ways just proves that tune repeats over and over, forever...from a net loss of weight at the muzzle(threaded for a tuner) to a net gain of several(many) ounces, with one. Bottom line here is two things...First, you can do it either way with equal results IME. Second is that it just repeats, over and over. That's important to remember. Other than positive compensation, there is no reason why one vibrational node would be better than the next...from the standpoint of which will shoot smallest...No difference. I've shot some tiny groups at the bottom of the barrel swing.

More later...
 
I almost can't

believe what I'm hearing. I have been preaching and teaching this for the last four years! I had made a post several years ago about being able to turn the tuner and knowing what the result would be.
You totally blew it off like I didn't know what I was talking about. And now your Moses come down the mountain?? Well, glad your coming up to speed on how to run a tuner.

Richard
 
believe what I'm hearing. I have been preaching and teaching this for the last four years! I had made a post several years ago about being able to turn the tuner and knowing what the result would be.
You totally blew it off like I didn't know what I was talking about. And now your Moses come down the mountain?? Well, glad your coming up to speed on how to run a tuner.

Richard

Are you talking to me?

I have no idea what you're talking about. The one thing I've tried to be is consistent. I'll assume you have me confused with someone else and let this go, or that there was some misunderstanding. Either way, it explains a lot.
If you had been paying attention, you'd know that I've maintained the same basic message about tuners for a long time, particularly since vibration testing, as there was a lot learned at that time.

Do you have anything you'd like to add on the subject? Feel free but your last couple of posts were disappointing.
 
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