Attention all ballisticians

Toby,
Read this...carefully. The link to it is at the top of the Sierra exterior ballistics index web page. You missed it on a previous post of mine. The first time that I said that experts disagree, I had unknowingly used out of date material. In this article the mistake is admitted and corrected.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/articles/article2.pdf

Good for them; glad to see they've addressed the mistake.

I'm suspicious of the description that the bullet flies with 'negative AOA as it climbs to apex, then positive AOA as it falls from apex'.

Now that I've seen it, I remember coming across that article some time ago, just completely forgot about it.

-Bryan
 
The partial vacuum formed to leewards is the actuating causation.
You are going to get Alinwa started all over again that our bullets are sucked down wind. :D
A vacuum can not exert a force - there is no mechanism for it. Only pressure can exert a force - by molecules colliding with the object in question. Differential pressure can exert a force because the side with the most pressure gets collided with more often and more forcefully - and the force is always in the same direction as the mean of those collisions, which just so happens to be in the direction of any lack of said collisions to balance the static equilibrium.
 
You are going to get Alinwa started all over again that our bullets are sucked down wind. :D
A vacuum can not exert a force - there is no mechanism for it. Only pressure can exert a force - by molecules colliding with the object in question. Differential pressure can exert a force because the side with the most pressure gets collided with more often and more forcefully - and the force is always in the same direction as the mean of those collisions, which just so happens to be in the direction of any lack of said collisions to balance the static equilibrium.

Thats were Natural Philoshopy and Science come into conflict.

Vacuum doesn't exert a force but it acheives an effect just the same.
"Nature Abhors a Vacuum" is a statement with its basis in Greek Philosophy, where the forces of nature are given attributes of living things.

What it amounts to is describing the same actions from a different view, just as we still say the Sun rises in the east though in fact the sunrise is the result of your venue moving by rotation of the earth.

Theres no true vacuum on earth and for that matter even interstellar space contains matter.

The energy flow is from thrust resulting in forwards motion, forwards motion results in what we perceive as airflow, when in fact the air need not move, the aircraft is what is in motion. So in the true sense the air doesn't provide the energy the thrust provides the energy.
Rather than air actually flowing over the wing the wing is knifing through the air.
The change of venue comes from wind tunnel testing where flight is simulated by forcing air over a stationary airfoil.

Lack of matter can produce a result, otherwise a vacuum cleaner couldn't work. The energy of the cleaners motor removes air from the tubing and the result is suction which moves matter by means of the energy produced by the motor with the lowered air pressure being the method by which the energy is transfered to the objects draw into the tube.
A example of matter producing suction is the vacuum like tube used to clear sediment from a sunken wreck. Pressurized Air is introduced to the tube at the lower end, the air bubbles expand and rise, their motion results in water being drawn into the pipe and sediment is drawn in with it.

If a flat object like a card is placed over the end of a tube and airflow is generated in the tube, the air pressure will push the object upwards without changing the air pressure on the upper surface of the flat object, if a ping pong ball is placed on the tube the air will flow around it and create a low pressure area above it producing lift when airflow begins to spin the ball lift increases, it will take far less energy to lift the ball than to push the card and the card won't be stable enough to remain in the airflow.

PS
If you break up the airflow over the wing so the partial vacuum can no longer be generated you'll drop like a rock because the air flow will not generate lift without the partial vacuum, instead its energy is soaked up as drag to kill fowards momentum.
Air flow striking the bottom of the wing can not by itself produce lift, or even apply enough energy to push the object upwards. Airflow without the generation of a low pressure area above the wing is only drag due to air resistence not lift.
 
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Vacuum doesn't exert a force but it acheives an effect just the same.
LOL. Not always. And I know we are getting off topic here, but funny story
Lack of matter can produce a result, otherwise a vacuum cleaner couldn't work. The energy of the cleaners motor removes air from the tubing and the result is suction which moves matter by means of the energy produced by the motor with the lowered air pressure being the method by which the energy is transfered to the objects draw into the tube.

A example of matter producing suction is the vacuum like tube used to clear sediment from a sunken wreck. Pressurized Air is introduced to the tube at the lower end, the air bubbles expand and rise, their motion results in water being drawn into the pipe and sediment is drawn in with it.
I company I once worked for thought that way for a while. Part of our process resulted in a plenum filling up with piles of granulated fines - their solution? Put a larger vacuum motor/pump to suck all those fines out.
Problem was they did not provide for any more air to be drawn in, and not only was there no improvement, the problem got worse.
It's not vacuum that moves things - it's airflow (or water in the case of the pneumatic dredge) and drag PUSHING them along ahead of the flow. Or , in the case of our bullet, even the apparent flow.
 
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LOL. Not always. And I know we are getting off topic here, but funny story

I company I once worked for thought that way for a while. Part of our process resulted in a plenum filling up with piles of granulated fines - their solution? Put a larger vacuum motor/pump to suck all those fines out.
Problem was they did not provide for any more air to be drawn in, and not only was there no improvement, the problem got worse.
It's not vacuum that moves things - it's airflow (or water in the case of the pneumatic dredge) and drag PUSHING them along ahead of the flow. Or , in the case of our bullet, even the apparent flow.

And in that example the vacuum produces the air flow or water flow, The water wasn't going to move without applicaton of energy by way of the vacuum.
Of course restricting the flow kills the system, thats obvious, but without the vacuum there is no system.
Just as without vacuum there can be no lift.
 
And in that example the vacuum produces the air flow or water flow, The water wasn't going to move without application of energy by way of the vacuum.
Of course restricting the flow kills the system, thats obvious, but without the vacuum there is no system.
Just as without vacuum there can be no lift.
No. You missed the point. Putting more HP into the vacuum generator had no effect. The vacuum exerts no force whatsoever...which is what produces the effect, by allowing the existing atmosphere - which is at greater pressure to push the air in to replace that which was removed, the lack of resistance allows this to achieve a greater velocity and produce more drag on the object to be moved- allowing more air to flow, even with the previous lower HP motor - was much more effective.
To further demonstrate this, the closer the pump gets to generating a "true" vacuum (by pushing all of the air out of the system), the lower the load on the motor - because it's moving less air. Large air compressors are often started up choked off for this very reason - pulling (or pushing) a vacuum produces much less of a load.
A vacuum pump or blower only causes the differential pressure needed to cause matter to move - the rest is drag.
 
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Toby,
Read this...carefully. The link to it is at the top of the Sierra exterior ballistics index web page. You missed it on a previous post of mine. The first time that I said that experts disagree, I had unknowingly used out of date material. In this article the mistake is admitted and corrected.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/articles/article2.pdf

One must wonder why they don't correct this on their web pages. That would be a very easy thing to do.

Anyhow, apparently more and more experts are agreeing. :)

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net
 
Vacuum AND pressure creates lift

If you break up the airflow over the wing so the partial vacuum can no longer be generated you'll drop like a rock because the air flow will not generate lift without the partial vacuum, instead its energy is soaked up as drag to kill fowards momentum.
Air flow striking the bottom of the wing can not by itself produce lift, or even apply enough energy to push the object upwards. Airflow without the generation of a low pressure area above the wing is only drag due to air resistence not lift.

Old Gunner,
Please look at the plot I attached to post #116. In that case, which is a fairly typical one, about half the lift comes from the vacuum on the top surface of the wing, and the other half from the pressure on the lower surface of the wing. If you were to eliminate the vacuum, there would still be lift from the pressure on the lower surface. It is the difference in pressure that creates lift, not the vacuum by itself or the pressure by itself. While it is theoretically possible to create an airfoil that has vacuum on the top and zero pressure on the bottom, it is also theoretically possible to create an airfoil that has zero vacuum on the top and pressure on the bottom. Both could have the same lift. But practical airfoils have both vacuum and pressure.

Another concept that needs to be cleared up is that pressure (positive or negative) acts perpendicular to any surface regardless of its shape and orientation. So pressure pushes on curved surfaces just the same as flat plates. In fact, as you can see it the plot attached to #116, a large part of the drag on the airfoil comes from pressure on the curved leading edge of the airfoil.

Cheers,
Keith
 
I'm suspicious of the description that the bullet flies with 'negative AOA as it climbs to apex, then positive AOA as it falls from apex'.

-Bryan

Yes, pitch should be positive and increase with range, as your 6DOF model shows.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Please look at the plot I attached to post #116. In that case, which is a fairly typical one, about half the lift comes from the vacuum on the top surface of the wing, and the other half from the pressure on the lower surface of the wing.

Cheers,
Keith
That is a nice illustration, but there is a flaw in it. Absolute pressures less than zero are physically impossible. But pressures equal to ambient atmospheric (approx 14.7psi) are often referred to as equal to zero (gauge pressure) - this is common, but still a misnomer. But it is one that that diagram utilizes to make a point.
The correct way to physically represent that airfoil would be to show that the pressure pushing down from above is much much much less than that pushing up. and the difference is what provides the lift.
 
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The Vacuum is responsible for the difference in pressure, without the vacuum there would be an equal amount of force on upper and lower surfaces and no lift. Creation of the partial vacuum is the cause, lift is the effect.

Another analogy.
Square rigged vs schooner rigged.
The square rigger is efficient only in moving with the wind, the schooner rig sail works as an airfoil and creates the same sort of low pressure area on the front curve of the sail, the schooner can sail almost directly into the wind. The schooner is not being pushed in the direction of the wind.

They can also move faster than the wind. Iceboats demonstrate this perfectly.

PS
Remember the air is not striking the wing, the wing is striking the air.
In level flight Airflow under the wing is paralel to the under surface, no direct transfer of energy to push the wing upwards.
When the angle of attack is increased it quickly reaches the point of the lower pressure area on the upper surface no longer being maintained and the underside of the wing striking the air with a much greater transfer of energy, yet the result is not increased lift its loss of lift and the wing stalls and the plane drops like a rock.
 
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The Vacuum is responsible for the difference in pressure, without the vacuum there would be an equal amount of force on upper and lower surfaces and no lift. Creation of the partial vacuum is the cause, lift is the effect.
Actually the airFLOW is the cause-the partial vacuum is part of the effect as well.

Another analogy.
Square rigged vs schooner rigged.
The square rigger is efficient only in moving with the wind, the schooner rig sail works as an airfoil and creates the same sort of low pressure area on the front curve of the sail, the schooner can sail almost directly into the wind. The schooner is not being pushed in the direction of the wind.

They can also move faster than the wind. Iceboats demonstrate this perfectly.
I think I covered quite a bit of this in the Muzzle Brake thread a while back. It has a lot to do with the redirection vs impact and gaining up to 2x of the winds momentum and transferring it to the schooner rig.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58233
I didn't jump in until post #65 - but the principles were touched upon earlier

PS
Remember the air is not striking the wing, the wing is striking the air.
In level flight Airflow under the wing is parallel to the under surface, no direct transfer of energy to push the wing upwards.
Most airfoils are not flat on the bottom, but also concave in the same manner that the top is convex - again like the schooner sail.


When the angle of attack is increased it quickly reaches the point of the lower pressure area on the upper surface no longer being maintained and the underside of the wing striking the air with a much greater transfer of energy, yet the result is not increased lift its loss of lift and the wing stalls and the plane drops like a rock.
When the low pressure side is disrupted from laminar flow into turbulent cavitation the "vacuum" forming low drag laminar airflow turns into the vacuum forming high drag of cavitation and vortices - destroying the lift to drag ratio needed for continued forward motion.
There is still an area of low pressure above the wing, just more drag - because of the pressure differential in the direction of motion vs perpendicular to it against gravity.
 
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That is a nice illustration, but there is a flaw in it. Absolute pressures less than zero are physically impossible. But pressures equal to ambient atmospheric (approx 14.7psi) are often referred to as equal to zero (gauge pressure) - this is common, but still a misnomer. But it is one that that diagram utilizes to make a point.
The correct way to physically represent that airfoil would be to show that the pressure pushing down from above is much much much less than that pushing up. and the difference is what provides the lift.

Yes, the pressures depicted are gauge pressure, which is the conventional way of representing pressure on an airfoil. Zero gauge pressure corresponds to an absolute pressure equal to the atmospheric pressure surrounding the airfoil far enough away from the airfoil to not be influenced by it. By using gauge pressure, the plot represents the local effect that the airfoil has on pressure relative to what it would have been had the airfoil not been there. Using absolute pressure (gauge pressure plus 14.7 psi) would make all the vectors point in the same direction, most of them would be longer and it would be more difficult to visualize the pressure difference that causes lift. You get the same pressure difference in either case, it's just easier to see with gauge pressure.

Cheers,
Keith
 
The thing is vibe, we all know this! Even Ol' Alinwaw of the infamous 'sucking' illustrations knows all this.

VACUUM and SUCKING are still real-world terms, just like HEAT is used ubiquitously ..............and you still keep insisting on "clarifying."



al
 
Actually the airFLOW is the cause-the partial vacuum is part of the effect as well.
Thrust is the cause of the air flow "speed is life".
Airflow is the cause of the lower pressure area.
The lowered pressure area is the cause of lift.

I think I covered quite a bit of this in the Muzzle Brake thread a while back. It has a lot to do with the redirection vs impact and gaining up to 2x of the winds momentum and transferring it to the schooner rig.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58233
I didn't jump in until post #65 - but the principles were touched upon earlier


Most airfoils are not flat on the bottom, but also concave in the same manner that the top is convex - again like the schooner sail.
Some are, notably ultra lights and parasails plus a few of the earliest wood and wire aircraft, but its not necessary for the lower surface to be curved for lift, curved lower surface can improve low speed performance. In its most radical form it can result in ground effect but thats outside the basic principle of lift.
If the curved under surface were efficient then the Taube would have out performed the Eindecker.
I've never seen a fighter or racing aircraft with noticable curvature of the lower surfaces.
A deeply curved wing increases drag as well as lift, landing flaps work on this principle for temporary increase in lift.
B24 bombers used to use the flaps to bump the heavily loaded craft upwards but at the cost of scrubbed off inertia. They used this only in emergencies and the flaps were deployed for only seconds, the scrubbing off of inertia caused airspeed to drop rapidly.
I think you are getting into the "longer path" controversy whitch is not my point at all.


When the low pressure side is disrupted from laminar flow into turbulent cavitation the "vacuum" forming low drag laminar airflow turns into the vacuum forming high drag of cavitation and vortices - destroying the lift to drag ratio needed for continued forward motion.
There is still an area of low pressure above the wing, just more drag - because of the pressure differential in the direction of motion vs perpendicular to it against gravity.
It does but that does not change the fact that air impact to the lower surface does not produce any decernable lift, even through the impact is much greater than in a low angle of attack.
As you say the low pressure area becomes drag, evidence that lack of matter and lack of energy can offset the effects of matter and energy just as the same low pressure area is the causation of lift, the key element of the order of cause and effect that begins with thrust.

The main confusion still comes from the venue factor.
When studying simulations of airflow or wind tunnel images, the POV of the observer tends to suggest that the air moves while the craft stands still, like a sailboat whos sail has just been unfurled and must wait on the wind , driven by the sun's energy to begin the process, rather than the opposite.
The airfloil impacts the air, not the other way around, unless you try to increase lift thru the Coanda effect.
The air pressure of the atmosphere remains the same everywhere around the aircraft other than in the low pressure zone above the wing. The increased impact of the aircarft to still air does not change the qualities of earth's atmosphere regardless of localized effects.
An analogy would be atmospheric skip, the re entering space craft is re directed not by stored energy of the air it impacts, but as a product of the molecules of air resistence to movement, the spacecraft impacts the air not the otherway around, and this is much more clearly understood since it is returning from an airless environment. Lift is irrevelvant in that case since skip rebounds the aircraft back out of the atmosphere, to either orbit again or be hurtled back into space forever, like a bullet or tossed stone glancing off a pond.

PS
Vibe the problem your company had may be related to the Coanda effect.
No way to know without examing the entire system.
 
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The air pressure of the atmosphere remains the same everywhere around the aircraft other than in the low pressure zone above the wing.



Old Gunner,
This statement is physically impossible. For a plane to move through air, it must move air out of its way, which leads to high pressure on leading edges. In fact, it is difficult to find surfaces on a aircraft where the pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure. Further, if pressure were the same everywhere except for the wings, then the rudder and elevators would serve no purpose. If pressure were the same everywhere except for the wings, then the fuselage could look like a Kenworth tractor/trailer with no ill effects.

Below is another plot of pressure distributions on a airfoil, this one of actual measurements on an Eppler E 64 at 2 degrees angle of attack. Note the high pressure on the lower surface, which you claim doesn't exist. Additional info at http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/velocitydistributions.htm

Keith

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Old Gunner,
This statement is physically impossible. For a plane to move through air, it must move air out of its way, which leads to high pressure on leading edges. In fact, it is difficult to find surfaces on a aircraft where the pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure. Further, if pressure were the same everywhere except for the wings, then the rudder and elevators would serve no purpose. If pressure were the same everywhere except for the wings, then the fuselage could look like a Kenworth tractor/trailer with no ill effects.

Below is another plot of pressure distributions on a airfoil, this one of actual measurements on an Eppler E 64 at 2 degrees angle of attack. Note the high pressure on the lower surface, which you claim doesn't exist. Additional info at http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/velocitydistributions.htm

Keith

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I said the atmosphere not the localized pressures on the aircraft's or airfoils skin. The following sentence should have made that clear enough, but perhaps my choice of words was not optimal.
The air pressure of the atmosphere remains the same everywhere around the aircraft other than in the low pressure zone above the wing. The increased impact of the aircarft to still air does not change the qualities of earth's atmosphere regardless of localized effects.
"Localized effects"
The "ATMOSPHERE" as in Atmospheric pressure.
The low pressure zone is a partial vacuum because theres fewer air molecules, so a portion of the atmosphere and its pressure is removed from the area above the wing. The atmosphere itself is un affected there just a tiny area where part of it is no longer there from moment to moment.
You words
it is difficult to find surfaces on a aircraft where the pressure is equal to atmospheric pressure
Say basically the same thing. Theres a difference between atmospheric pressure and the localized pressure effects.

Once again.
The air pressure on the under surface can not lift the aircraft against an equal amount of air pressure on the upper surface. Without the low pressure zone there is no lift.
If the airfoil can not produce and maintain the low pressure zone, no amount of forwards motion or airflow could lift the wing.
 
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