Anyone reaming dies???

A

alinwa

oft dis'd member
When reaming a Newlon or other die blank how do you'se set the bored center hole to the lathe centerline?

Is SOP just to assume the id is concentric and colinear with the od and chuck 'er up, indicate the hole and drill/ream?

Or is there a better way?

al
 
Al, we use an adjust-true chuck, and indicate in the hole. I get a bushing the size of that nice bored & reamed hole in the die, and use the chamber reamer (for a seating die) with a pusher in the tailstock, just like chambering a barrel.

I've not made a *real* FL die, but used the FL reamer to make a inside neck reaming die with it, same procedure, as I remember. (My answer to TJ Jackson's notion to bore all case necks true to the centerline. After reaming with the FL reamer, the top end of the die gets a ground, hardened, pilot bushing, so the inside neck reamer functions like a boring bar, as it can't go anywhere. Works fine.)

I would think this same technique would do for an FL sizing die as well. The reamer pilot bushing won't guide it all the way, but by the time the reamer pilot is in the die cavity for the (eventual) die bushing, the reamer is quite a ways in.

Wilson dies all (supposedly) have the same size hole through the die, and Tony Newlon will bore/ream the hole in the die to whatever size you want, so you usually only need one bushing per caliber to make dies.

Having said all this, there may be a better way, so I'll listen to what the pros have to say.

BTW, I use 12L14 leaded steel for dies except for neck sizing dies. An FL sizing die would then be hardened . . .
 
Al,

If you're concerned, why not just indicate the outside of it and prebore? Actually, you can probably see the OD has been cut, so, knowing that it would make sense to simply cut the od and put the rough hole in, you could assume it's as close as it's gonna get. It's easy enough to check at the ends, and assume it is straight between (no pun intended).
 
No. In one of my long talks with Troy -- make that listenings to -- he convinced me that the hole he puts in the die blank is more accurate than anything I could do.
 
OK, let me expand a liddle....

Let's presume the blank IS perfect (altho I'd like to check it) ..............od/id all good and a straight hole. I put it in the chuck, fairly gently, don't wanna' crush it....Center it all up on the end and run the indicator in deeeeppp and she's STILL all good. I guess then I can have at 'er

Frankly, I'll be surprised if this happens! I don't know that my chuck is that true.

Charles, I WANT to prebore. I don't like chewing the end off my chambering reamer cutting inch/2-inch deep holes.

But I can't figure out how to set up for it.

al
 
alinwa said:
Frankly, I'll be surprised if this happens! I don't know that my chuck is that true.
Click to expand...
If you think your chuck is off, wait till you make fixtures to check your reloading press.
But I can't figure out how to set up for it.
Click to expand...
I'm drawing a blank here. I guess I'm not sure what you're referring to. Above you mention to just put it in the lathe, indicate, and go have at it. Is there something odd about the part that makes it so you can't chuck it? Sounds unlikely since it is a blank that is intended to be machined.

Furthermore, if you think (or know) that your chuck is off, why would you not just grab a ceramic insert and go bore the jaws while under preload? I mean, do a nice job of cleaning the jaws and chuck parts first so you're not sitting on a chip or some dirt. But, after that, indicating ain't real hard. If you bore the jaws, they'll be close enough for most jobs you do, even without bothering to indicate. When you do have to, a brass tapper is about all you need. Tighten, tap tap tap, done.
 
alinwa said:
Charles, I WANT to prebore. I don't like chewing the end off my chambering reamer cutting inch/2-inch deep holes.
Click to expand...
One reason I use 12L14. But -- you have this die reamer. Unless you're doing work for other people, just how many dies do you figure you'll make? Then how many with having the reamer sharpened 3-4 times. I should live so long. But if you just gotta bore, you'll have to pay the price of your affliction.

If you don't trust your chuck, what Phil says. Or get an adjust-true. Or, you could make a bell chuck & pretend the die is a barrel with two spiders . . . Lord, that would be slow!

IIRC, Jim Borden uses a high-dollar eight jaw for barrel work. After getting the outside of the barrel dead nuts -- I believe he uses a slave on the muzzle end -- they simply put the barrel in the chuck. If the bore is not running true, they need only clean the jaws. Their setup is that good. The chuck is not bucked.

All kinds of ways to do what you want to do, pick one that eases your fears.

Edit:

Phil . . .
If you think your chuck is off, wait till you make fixtures to check your reloading press.
Click to expand...
If it was anyone but you, I'd just ignore this. But maybe you see something I'm missing. I use to sweat about reloading presses. Then it occurred to me that (1) if the shellholder is in firm contact with the die, (2) that's it. If the shellholder isn't in firm contact with the die, I don't think you'll get repeatable headspacing anyway.

I don't care if the press runs out, flexes, or does the highland fling. All that matters is the shellholder and the die. I suppose some could argue the shellholder needs to be stiff enough to not flex, but for me, I can't see that as an issue. If the shellholder doesn't hit the die, I got a trick from Joel -- epoxy shim stock to the shellholder so it does.

Not that I'll be easy to convince this is wrong, but you're one of the few I'd listen to . . .
 
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4Mesh said:
If you think your chuck is off, wait till you make fixtures to check your reloading press.

I'm drawing a blank here. I guess I'm not sure what you're referring to. Above you mention to just put it in the lathe, indicate, and go have at it. Is there something odd about the part that makes it so you can't chuck it? Sounds unlikely since it is a blank that is intended to be machined.

Furthermore, if you think (or know) that your chuck is off, why would you not just grab a ceramic insert and go bore the jaws while under preload? I mean, do a nice job of cleaning the jaws and chuck parts first so you're not sitting on a chip or some dirt. But, after that, indicating ain't real hard. If you bore the jaws, they'll be close enough for most jobs you do, even without bothering to indicate. When you do have to, a brass tapper is about all you need. Tighten, tap tap tap, done.
Click to expand...

I don't care a whit whether my reloading press is "true" or not.

But the die thing is legitimate, NO I have no indication that my chuck is off but that's because everything that's been in it has been rocker adjustable (barrel in chuck/spider) or has been drilled/bored in place. PEI Rob has my problem nailed down, I may need to rock the part end-to-end.... an action fixture would do the trick.

big suck tho

al
 
Al,

My spider is 4.5 inches between the 2 sets of 4 holes. I have made a sleeve that fits the Wilson straight line seating dies. The sleeve is 6 inches long. I put the die in the sleeve, put it in the spider, then center the die blank in the spider as if I were going to chamber a barrel. I only have done seating dies though, not a sizing die yet. Guess what you have to order a real huge bushing for your reamer when making seating dies... the bushing has to fit the dies stem hole. For instance a .3094 for the .30 cals.

Paul
 
Yes Paul, that's what I'm talking about. Altho I'm still a little chary of a double spider...... a 338 Improved reamer puts some serious twisting force on the part.

At this point I'll probably end up with a steady set right in front of the chuck.

al
 
Charles E said:
Edit:

Phil . . . If it was anyone but you, I'd just ignore this. But maybe you see something I'm missing. I use to sweat about reloading presses. Then it occurred to me that (1) if the shellholder is in firm contact with the die, (2) that's it. If the shellholder isn't in firm contact with the die, I don't think you'll get repeatable headspacing anyway.

I don't care if the press runs out, flexes, or does the highland fling. All that matters is the shellholder and the die. I suppose some could argue the shellholder needs to be stiff enough to not flex, but for me, I can't see that as an issue. If the shellholder doesn't hit the die, I got a trick from Joel -- epoxy shim stock to the shellholder so it does.

Not that I'll be easy to convince this is wrong, but you're one of the few I'd listen to . . .
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This is directed at both Charles and Al, though some parts at one or the other.

First, Charles, I am in full agreement with you. Actually, as you know I make my own dies. Now, I make them long, then grind to length so that they are a perfect fit to the rifle. So, then if the die is left say, .003 long, I can grind the tops of shellholders (that are pretty darn close as a rule) and I can make up various ones to suit cases of different ages, different hardness, etc. On the subject of epoxy with shim stock, I just weld mine up and recut them, or I simply make new ones from scratch. 4140, then heat treat, man, they're a nice shellholder.

No guys, my statement about the press wasn't to imply that they make a hill of beans. I own a Rockchucker that is at work and has been for 10 years. For "Real" reloading, I use a Lee Turret Press. Wonderful thing. Is it true? Hell, I don't know. It might be off by a mile, but my dies are straight so I don't care. No, what I'm saying is, Al, if the press can be off by a mile, wth difference does it make if you indicate the die body? This entire thread is another great example of dreaming up solutions for non-existent problems. Sorta like putting holes in parts to .001 resolution, then welding the parts together. :?

If you WANT to prebore, and want the die straight, then my hats off to ya. I do mine ID and OD in one operation with a boring bar, they're pretty nice. Is it necessary? No. Am I going to chuck it twice just to make it wrong? Well, not likely.

Would someone please tell me what difference it would make if this hole in the die was not centered? How much slop is in the press ram? How much slop in the shellholder? How much flex in the press frame? Is a die that's .002 eccentric going to matter?
 
If you think you have to correct the die blank, why not just make you own?
Buy a foot of 1" 12L14 and have at it.
 
I hear you about the press but I can't bring myself to throw a pre threaded blank in the 3 jaw, insert the reamer and ignore it wobbling around.
 
Al;
I took an old barrel and bored out the end of it to a snug fit of the top of the Newlan blank and drilled two holes in it at 90 degrees. Tap the holes for set screws, lock in the die blank, set it up in the lathe with the soft jaws just like chambering a barrel and use the Gritters method of aligning the hole in the center of the blank ( I know you know how to do that). Pre drill and ream away. You will have as straight a die as you can buy.

Sam
 
Communication is hard! ;)

No I'm not trying to correct the die blank, nor am I concerned with the od.... but YES absolutely I have a problem with the interior 'chamber' of the die die being eccentric or cocked to the bore of the die blank. And YES this is of course the second setup, this is in fact the crux of my question. How do I get the bore of the die lined up from scratch?

When all is said and done I may have to rely on some ground 'Range Rods' and take an outside reading.

And yes my intent is to make these for sale, unless I can find a subcontractor who's timely and careful.

al
 
Basically, what I'm being told is....."chuck the blank in, locate it to center and have at it!"

"So what it has a little....."

That answers my question which was "how are you guys doing it?"

thanks

al
 
Al,
My perspective has changed a few times during this thread. First, I thought "this is overkill, but whatever, answer the question". I tried. Some of it didn't make sense to me, what you were asking that is.

Then, I started to think maybe you were just yankin my chain. ehhhalllright.

Now... I don't quite know what to think.

Look, the jaws in your lathe can't possibly be that bad. I mean, unless you're stuck using only a 4 jaw... So, you are using a scroll chuck are you not? 3 Jaw (or variant)?

Ok, put the part in the chuck. Indicate it to within .002 anywhere inside that you can reach. Forget the rest of it. Bore it. Now it is as straight as your lathe. Ream it, it is perfectly to size, done. You are going to put this thing into a press that has .040 of error in any number of directions at various stages. Everything aligns itself to that hole. If you're thinking it won't be to size, I don't know what to say.

Last attempt at 'helping'. Ok, if the part is difficult to get lined up cause it's short. Here's a tip. Cut a dummy piece that will both fit in your die blank, and has an extra stem on it. Chuck THAT in your tailstock. Put the blank on it. Put it in the chuck. Tighten. Remove that plug. Go to work. (works well on parts that are large round, but flat with little surface against the jaws).

Also, only chuck on the top of the blank and now, the part back where the neck will be is centered in the chuck better, if the front wobbles some, live with it. (it won't be much).
 
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