Am I wrong ?

OK, enough hijacking. What I'd say to Mr. Bluefield is what he probably already knows. If his policy is costing him too much business, he'll probably have to change his policy. If not, it is certainly not unique.

I'll allow that when I need a barrel, even if I'm going to fit it, I usually offer to order it through a gunsmith, so they can get another one toward their 10 or 20 barrel discount. Nor do I expect them to mark mine down. Gunsmith's aren't paid enough, period.
 
Mr Bluefield,
No, you're not "wrong". You have a perfect right to run your business in most any legal way that suits you, weird lawsuits aside. But, unless you have more business coming in your door than you can finish in a reasonable amount of time, you might want to rethink your policy. There are some things I won't do for customers, but not many as long as they are willing to pay for it. You may well find that you can charge more for your labor, while allowing the customer to do the legwork gathering the parts. As was said above, you certainly don't have to warranty said parts, but most of them are going to be what you would have sold them anyway and you won't have to tie up your money and storage space to stock parts the customer can find for himself.

You are certainly discouraging potential and repeat customers with your present policy. If that's your aim, then keep it up. If you want more business, you might want to make a change.

Rick
 
To Ron in VA. I would be happy with that.

I happen to have more work than one person can handle. It is not a matter of that I have to take every job that comes in the door. What I need is more time. The pleasure of owning your own business is that you can turn away the tire kickers who's only criteria is how cheaply it can be done. Gunsmithing is only half the business. The other half is stocking quality parts that I know I can trust to put my name and reputation on. Your reputation is EVERYTHING in this business. When you start taking jobs just for the money, and do not care what the out come is from the miss mash of parts brought to you, you will loose more customers than the few you turn away. Believe me. Your name is on every gun you touch. Weather you engrave it on the barrel or not. If it turns to crap you think that owner of the gun is going to accept responsibility? Ian_Owen gave a perfect example of this in his post. You can bet that Mr. Crap Parts will tell everyone he knows what a lousy job your did and never mentioning he supplied the junk.

If you do not stock anything or want to supply the parts of the build, then the customer has to supply the components. If you are doing work for retail sport shops then I would expect them to supply what they can. They are in the business to retail and you know that up front. Your business relationship with them is symbiotic. I do not pad the job with over priced parts. I know who my good and repeat customers are. When they have a problem with one of their guns the week before hunting season or just before an important match they will be moved to the head of the line. That is the long term relationships that carries your business through the lean times.
 
Charles E said:
Yes. In the States, if you had then refused to work on his transmission with his parts, he'd have sued you for that.

Or maybe it's the same the world over -- no matter what, you just can't win...
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LOL here in NZ you don't have the ability to sue.......Here in NZ we have the Consumers Guarantee Act, this gives all the rights to the consumer and none to the business, give you an example

Owner has a vehicle with a blown head gasket, takes it to his local workshop, the workshop removes the head and has it tested. The head being alloy has become too soft to reuse due to being overheated. Workshop tells the owner this, the owner says I can't afford to buy a new head so please reassemble it with the original head. The workshop does that and writes on the invoice what happened and the instructions from the customer, the customer signs the workshop copy.
The vehicle is sold and a few months latter the head gasket fails........the new owner takes the workshop to the disputes tribunal for not carrying out a fit and proper repair........the owner wins and the workshop has to redo the job and supply a new head all at no cost to the new owner.........this is a true story and thankfully didn't happen to me.

Charles I agree I think it's just a fact that business just can't win, profesionals (ie lawyers, accountants etc) seem to be able to and seem to be immune to these things......Ian
 
Bluefield said:
To Ron in VA. I would be happy with that.

I happen to have more work than one person can handle. It is not a matter of that I have to take every job that comes in the door. What I need is more time. The pleasure of owning your own business is that you can turn away the tire kickers who's only criteria is how cheaply it can be done. Gunsmithing is only half the business. The other half is stocking quality parts that I know I can trust to put my name and reputation on. Your reputation is EVERYTHING in this business. When you start taking jobs just for the money, and do not care what the out come is from the miss mash of parts brought to you, you will loose more customers than the few you turn away. Believe me. Your name is on every gun you touch. Weather you engrave it on the barrel or not. If it turns to crap you think that owner of the gun is going to accept responsibility? Ian_Owen gave a perfect example of this in his post. You can bet that Mr. Crap Parts will tell everyone he knows what a lousy job your did and never mentioning he supplied the junk.

If you do not stock anything or want to supply the parts of the build, then the customer has to supply the components. If you are doing work for retail sport shops then I would expect them to supply what they can. They are in the business to retail and you know that up front. Your business relationship with them is symbiotic. I do not pad the job with over priced parts. I know who my good and repeat customers are. When they have a problem with one of their guns the week before hunting season or just before an important match they will be moved to the head of the line. That is the long term relationships that carries your business through the lean times.
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I've quoted all this because I think I understand, and agree with your decision. Our small (5-man shop) is in a similar situation, except with setting type. We are specialized. That means (1) we charge a bit more, and (2) only work for a certain group of people (academic book publishers).

There are almost never any misunderstandings when we turn down work, because contrary to what you may think from my postings on BR Central, I will, if needed, take the time to tell people or other publishers why their job doesn't fit our business. That can well be for quality issues, they've selected a typeface that can't be used successfully, have a design that would, in my opinion, reflect poorly on our shop (tricky when it's the guy's wife who designed it), & on & on.

Most of the time, it's easy -- for example, they don't have an editor, and we won't/can't supply one. But occasionally I wind up taking several hours explaining to/showing why we won't take someone's job. I also try to help them find a shop who will do a reasonable job for them, given their situation, at a reasonable price.

Of course, from time to time I fail, & they go away mad. But that's not too often, and at least I tried.

For all I know, that's what you do & are just using BR Central to vent a bit. If not, I'd recommend the above approach, even with it's cost of unbillable time. In the long run, it can get you more of the kind of business you want to do.
 
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Charles E.
Thank you for bringing up the point that Custom Rifle Builders aren't paid enough. Those of us that do make a living in this business know how difficult it can be at times. None of us are getting rich on the resale of components, Yet we take the responsibility of replacing them when they are faulty. For example, When we have to replace a barrel that won't shoot when it was no fault of our own. Sure, the barrel maker will replace it but he won't thread and chamber it for us. All that comes out of our pockets. Try telling your customer that he has to pay another 250-300 dollars to fit another barrel on his new Rifle and see how happy he is when he supplied the parts. Now YOU ARE THE BAD GUY. Seems like cheap insurance for the client to let the smith order the parts. I don't know of any Custom Rifle Builders that are becoming Millionaires. Boe
 
While I am not a Gunsmith, I am in the Machine Shop Business. We are primarilly in the business of selling labor, but we furnish 90 percent of the material used in our jobs. Our standard markup for material is, and 20 percent.

If a good customer does ask to furnish material, we will make sure that the material is within the specs as required for the job. If we tell a customer that the material is unsuitable, I am yet to have one say use it anyway.

But ask yourself this. Have you ever been to a general Auto Repair Shop that would allow you to furnish parts. I haven't. Maybe a specialty Hot Rod Shop, but not one that just does the standard repairs that are part of wear and tear on a car.



I would put Gunsmithing in much the caregory. If you are dealing with the general shooting public, yes, furnish the parts. But for extreme specialties such as Benchrest Shooters, work with the customer and let him bring in what he is comfortable with, and you make your money by selling your expertice and labor.
 
I was raised in a working class household, conservative but not business owner, I was raised to be "a good worker."

Later in life I sat behind the counter as a gunsmith, again not the owner but the guy doing the work. I loved my job.

I'd heard all my life, learned it in business classes in school and always parroted the idea that "the customer is always right." But in dealing with them day after day I just couldn't agree....... I had customers who were completely delusional! Arrogant, ignorant, abrasive, DUMB, full of ideas that wouldn't/couldn't work.....And some who were just complete D!ck$ (I think that's how it's spelled here) I also had lots of wonderful customers but that's another subject :)

Later I bought my own business and again dealt with all sorts of people, again the contest of wills. Over the next ten years in business I was "right" more often than not in these contests, I've even had customers tell me "Every time we disagree on how to do something, you win! What's UP with that??" My reply was, "Well, I really DO know my job!"

So I was "right".... a lot. I really AM good at my job...

Over the next ten years I noticed some of these clients drifting over to do business with other people. Some came back over quality issues, some I still spent time with in other venues etc but some I never saw again after "being right."

And I learned something......... and I changed something. I no longer argue with a customer. I state my case and SHUT UP.

Because, THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!!!!

"Right" is what the customer wants.


Even when he's dead wrong..... ;)


opinionsby
al
 
A good point, Al. When I was a kid, I read Nero Wolfe novels. He was the best available at his job, and so was able to not cater to the whims of his clients. That second notion is an attitude we share.

When I started a business with 3 other people, they wisely didn't let me talk to the customers. After about 10 years, I did. Like Al, I'm very good at what I do -- sometimes a sole source in the States. Even with that capability, like Al, we have to have & depend on repeat business.

What's this have to do with Nero Wolfe? He didn't depend on repeat business.

Factor that into your business model.
 
Bluefield,
Simply explain to your customer that your labor rate is discounted when using parts you stock. Bring your own parts, no discount. That way your not refusing anyone. The customer desides.:)
 
Wilbur said:
Speaking of liability...Do any of you gunsmiths still etch or engrave your name on the barrel you chambered? Seems like that would be an unnecessary risk.
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We quit doing that several years back on advice from my attorney. Another tip: If you don't carry liability insurance you are almost guaranteeing that you won't be sued. There's hardly a lawyer alive who will sue you if you don't have deep pockets (liability insurance).
 
MColeman said:
We quit doing that several years back on advice from my attorney. Another tip: If you don't carry liability insurance you are almost guaranteeing that you won't be sued. There's hardly a lawyer alive who will sue you if you don't have deep pockets (liability insurance).
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Mickey, that's probably a good idea not to have your name on the barrel, especially if a rifle changes hands a few times. I've had rifles leave here with tight necks, that had later been opened up by someone else. It changes hands a few times and then the new owner wonders why it doesn't have the size neck that the engraving on the barrel says it does and calls the gunsmith whose name is on the barrel and asks why it's not what it's marked. Easy answer is that it's owner got tired of turning necks and had the chamber opened up. Or worse, someone shoots an unturned neck in a rifle that has changed hands a few times and doesn't realize what the engraving behind the caliber designation means, .269" NK. Forces the unturned neck into the chamber and blames the gunsmith as to why he is getting excess pressure. I stand behind my work to the original owner, but is probably a good idea to leave the name off the barrel. The original owner knows who did the work and that's probably good enough. No reason to open yourself up to liability when a rifle changes hands several times.
 
alinwa said:
I'd heard all my life, learned it in business classes in school and always parroted the idea that "the customer is always right." But in dealing with them day after day I just couldn't agree....... I had customers who were completely delusional! Arrogant, ignorant, abrasive, DUMB, full of ideas that wouldn't/couldn't work.....And some who were just complete D!ck$ (I think that's how it's spelled here) I also had lots of wonderful customers but that's another subject :)


And I learned something......... and I changed something. I no longer argue with a customer. I state my case and SHUT UP.

Because, THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!!!!

"Right" is what the customer wants.


Even when he's dead wrong..... ;)


opinionsby
al
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Al........boy am I glad I'm not the only one who has customers like you describe..........to tell the truth customers like that are few. When it comes to arguing with the customer most I do what you do state my case and come to a compromise..........unless I just don't want the customer back then I'm right and they don't come back.

Give you an example of that, we checked out the transmission for a potential customer on a vehicle he was thinking of purchasing. We removed the pan and checked for debris, found none, put the old fluid back in, on the instruction of the customer and took it for a short testdrive, the customer was prepared to pay 1 hour for this work. The customer bought the vehicle and four weeks after purchase found that after driving it for several km's (approx 15km) he found that the vehicle would start shuddering. He bought it back to us and after diagnosing the fault I informed him that the torque converter clutch was not engaging properly and was causing the shudder. His response was well we checked out the vehicle so when are you going to fix it, I told him the approx cost of repair and it was then that I found he expected us to fix it for free. I disagreed with him and after three further discussions we ended up at a mediated meeting..........he lost, but I offered to refund his original inspection fee if he promised he would never step foot in my workshop again. I have made that offer to two customers so far, my thoughts are I don't need customers that cost me more than I make in profit.
I can honestly say I have some very good regular customers.

Jackie only 20% markup??? Can you supply my steel in the future?? A local business marked up the steel he sold me 100% and that was on the price I could buy it for, he didn't have it in stock so bought it in and sold it same day...............Ian
 
Wilbur said:
Speaking of liability...Do any of you gunsmiths still etch or engrave your name on the barrel you chambered? Seems like that would be an unnecessary risk.
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Every barrel that I have chambered, threaded and fitted to an action since 1967 has my initials on it... DRS

It is only an indication that I originally installed that barrel from a blank... It's never been a problem.
 
I was informed by an ATF Officer that came in my shop several years ago that I was required to mark every barrel that I install. She also explained the marks had to be at least .003 in depth. With name of business and cartridge. If someone names you or your business in a lawsuit all the Attorney has to do is to request your ATF A&D records. I don't think not marking the barrel will stop them from moving forward with the lawsuit. You will still have the cost of litigation, regardless if you are right or wrong. Now, if the Rifle changed hands and the owner doesn't know for sure who the builder was that's a different story.

Boe
 
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Boe said:
I was informed by an ATF Officer that came in my shop several years ago that I was required to mark every barrel that I install. She also explained the marks had to be at least .003 in depth. With name of business and cartridge. If someone names you or your business in a lawsuit all the Attorney has to do is to request your ATF A&D records. I don't think not marking the barrel will stop them from moving forward with the lawsuit. You will still have the cost of litigation, regardless if you are right or wrong. Now, if the Rifle changed hands and the owner doesn't know for sure who the builder was that's a different story.

Boe
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That's the word I get from ATFE, too!
 
Boe said:
I was informed by an ATF Officer that came in my shop several years ago that I was required to mark every barrel that I install. She also explained the marks had to be at least .003 in depth. With name of business and cartridge. If someone names you or your business in a lawsuit all the Attorney has to do is to request your ATF A&D records. I don't think not marking the barrel will stop them from moving forward with the lawsuit. You will still have the cost of litigation, regardless if you are right or wrong. Now, if the Rifle changed hands and the owner doesn't know for sure who the builder was that's a different story.

Boe
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I thought I had read that somewhere. I was going to look it up and make sure that was correct.
 
Mike Bryant said:
I thought I had read that somewhere. I was going to look it up and make sure that was correct.
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In print, it's "legal speak", written by lawyers for lawyers. Got my information verbally, like Boe did, from a field agent. Then went and found it under "rulings".
 
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I'm not so sure that applies to barrels. That .003" deep thing was intended for receivers. ATF does not track barrels, stocks, etc.
 
Seems like the time for a phone call/questions to the local ATFE office would be the best thing to do if you are "in the business". Would look to me like they're keeping track of 'who made it', not barrels/stocks, ect.
 
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