Airing it out

M

MaxxPower

Member
George:

You asked for an explanation for what the problem is with Unlimited shooters “messing around” or using 3-Gun relays as a testing ground since match conditions are the BEST conditions to test with. Since you asked to do it on a public forum here goes:

Let’s start with some hypotheticals. Would you come to a 3-Gun or Sporter National and expect to be able to sit in and test ammo? Those are great test conditions also. How about a Regionals… or even a State match? Still great testing conditions. Now, we get to a local Club match and clearly you think there’s nothing wrong with non-competitors using that as a testing opportunity. So, in your mind what’s the difference? Is it less respect for a Club match or something I’m not seeing?

So, I think that shines a light on where the disconnect is. Respect for the game and other competitors. If I am at a match, whether it’s a Nationals or a Club match, I am taking it seriously. I’ve driven 4 hours, spent over $200 for the day and lost that day away from my family. I expect everyone on each relay to be a Competitor and I would think they’d be competing. That means different things to each shooter. Going for their first 250 in Sporter. Trying for a 750. Beating just that one shooter they enjoy shooting. Shooting all 25 bulls. But personally I don’t think it’s an opportunity for shooters with nothing on the line to test rifles or ammo.

For shooters who don’t shoot 3-Gun the majority of targets shot at Piney Hill in the Winter season are Unlimited. That means there are plenty of relays to shoot if a shooter really only wants to test ammo. And the added bonus is they can sleep 2 hours later or have a late breakfast. Or, there’s nothing stopping a group of shooters who wan to shoot in match conditions to meet at Piney Hill, close the doors, run a timer and simulate their own match conditions.

Some would say I take this too seriously. I guess “guilty as charged”. I have a pretty good feeling I’m not the only one who feels this way. When I stop taking it seriously I’ll be selling a couple of really good rifles.

Bruce
 
Bruce I am a 3 gun competitor. I do not see your point.
To me it doesn't matter if I am alone at a bench, or they are full.

I would agree that state, regional, or Nationals should not allow this.
But a regular match if they behaved themselves I would not mind
at all.

I am sure the ranges would not mind collecting range fees for those
unused benches.

Dean
 
Am a little confused on some things. First, have no idea what Bruce's post is in reference to. I know Bruce is not a fan of mine. To say his personality and mine don't mix is an understatement. No biggie, people can disagree about things in life. But is this about what was covered earlier, or something George posted? I'm not seeing anything. Maybe I'm blind, or maybe it went kaput.

But, that aside, is this all from my post in the other thread about the possibility of combining classes at matches? If so, it's gone way off from the original point of my post. If my post caused such angst, let me restate what I was trying to say.

To me, one way that might make things better is to allow people with guns that don't meet the criteria for certain classes to shoot while other matches are being held. No, the scores wouldn't count. But it would keep people from getting bored while waiting, and possibly get new shooters into this. At least it gives them a reference point as to what they're looking at.

I thought Keith had a great idea with what he posted. And I was trying to say I liked the way he was going about things. I did caution that if this was done, some people might get upset. And gave an example of one instance where it seemed to have happened here at Piney Hill.

From that post, everything went sideways. Alleged complaints that people were practicing, gaining advantages, jumping up and down from the benches, twisting tuners, etc, etc, etc. Bruce stated that he knows that people complained. The time this incident took place, there were no complaints noted. Not from a the match director, not from any shooter in the building. And yes, several were asked if there would be an issue beforehand. Which made me think it was just Bruce being Bruce when he posted what he did. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe there were people who were upset. But my question in the original post was why didn't anyone say anything? Not then, not one single instance since this "atrocity" happened.

I don't think rehashing this is going to change anyone's opinions. So, it happened, it's done, it hasn't happened since at Piney Hill. It's a shame that even though he had good intentions, Chris got drug into this mess. He was only trying to do something a little different to keep people invested.

But the bigger issue I have is that going to matches and seeing how certain people actually act at these matches, I find what they say here a bit of hypocritical.

I have seen people ask to be allowed to shoot guns that didn't qualify in certain classes. They were allowed to do so. Sometimes they were asked to pay the match fee, other times they weren't asked to do this. Have seen them offer to pay, have seen their offers accepted and also refused. Other times, the same match director said no they couldn't shoot.

I have seen people get up and down from benches during sanctioned matches. Many times have seen certain people get up, go to the staging area, look through their ammo and return to the bench and continue shooting the match.

I've seen...you know what? It just doesn't matter.

You guys do what you want. Play gotcha, prop up a strawman or two about how you can't do this or that, unless you yourself need to do it. Sit around and laugh about the time you figured out a way to screw over someone while they shot for score. But then B**** about someone wanting to shoot a few shots on a practice target to get a new scope adjusted, or to keep from being bored. Put it all out on the internet and then complain about how new shooters don't show up.

Have fun guys. It's been a blast.

Kenny
 
MaxxPower said:
George:

You asked for an explanation for what the problem is with Unlimited shooters “messing around” or using 3-Gun relays as a testing ground since match conditions are the BEST conditions to test with. Since you asked to do it on a public forum here goes:

Let’s start with some hypotheticals. Would you come to a 3-Gun or Sporter National and expect to be able to sit in and test ammo? Those are great test conditions also. How about a Regionals… or even a State match? Still great testing conditions. Now, we get to a local Club match and clearly you think there’s nothing wrong with non-competitors using that as a testing opportunity. So, in your mind what’s the difference? Is it less respect for a Club match or something I’m not seeing?

So, I think that shines a light on where the disconnect is. Respect for the game and other competitors. If I am at a match, whether it’s a Nationals or a Club match, I am taking it seriously. I’ve driven 4 hours, spent over $200 for the day and lost that day away from my family. I expect everyone on each relay to be a Competitor and I would think they’d be competing. That means different things to each shooter. Going for their first 250 in Sporter. Trying for a 750. Beating just that one shooter they enjoy shooting. Shooting all 25 bulls. But personally I don’t think it’s an opportunity for shooters with nothing on the line to test rifles or ammo.

For shooters who don’t shoot 3-Gun the majority of targets shot at Piney Hill in the Winter season are Unlimited. That means there are plenty of relays to shoot if a shooter really only wants to test ammo. And the added bonus is they can sleep 2 hours later or have a late breakfast. Or, there’s nothing stopping a group of shooters who wan to shoot in match conditions to meet at Piney Hill, close the doors, run a timer and simulate their own match conditions.

Some would say I take this too seriously. I guess “guilty as charged”. I have a pretty good feeling I’m not the only one who feels this way. When I stop taking it seriously I’ll be selling a couple of really good rifles.

Bruce
Click to expand...

Bruce,
I know your passionate about your shooting, that's the reason you do so well and your someone to look up to in that respect and I do. Your correct, I do not view a Club Match the same as you do, basically all I have ever used club matches for, is to test ammo or some change I have made to my setup, it cost me no less than it does for you to be able to do that. I am 187 miles from PH and own a business. A club match implies to me, a time to gather and be able to try something different. You just see it different than I do.

That's not the problem. This is.
Quoting you from a different thread on the same subject.

"I didn't attend the match where you and your buds where allowed to "mess around" during relays but I do know there were several complaints. Specifically, that it was being used as an opportunity to tune rifles with a lot of up and down and tuner twisting. If you don't understand what's wrong with that then explaining it isn't going to do any good."

IR50/50 has a specific rule just for that kind of conduct. Rule # 8.7 Your going off hearsay, I was there and personally, I did not see or hear anything during the matches in question, that would constitute a problem. Kenny and Mike did not shoot during the Sporter portion, they did not even ask until the 10.5 and 13 was hanging targets, at my suggestion as well. They were given the go ahead. If someone had an issue, it was not voiced at that time. I did not watch them like a hawk, but both those guys are very respectful while at the bench. So I do not know who the several were that complained and frankly it should not matter, but if they had complaint, it should have been brought to light at the time to the Range Master. ( again looking at 8.7 in the IR50/50 rule book.) It could have been dealt with then and there.

I wanted to quote you again, but sadly that thread is gone, no doubt thanks to me. In it you said something to the effect, that you basically saw no difference when someone was beside you shooting a UL gun, while you were using your Sporter in a non-sporter match. So, how would you know if I am shooting a target for score or testing ammo.

There are always distractions at shooting matches, it could be noise, spent cases, fans, people twisting tuners, someone getting up to retrieve more or different ammo.... we have seen it all and endure it as it is part of the game we play. It is something that needs to be tested as well as we would another other part of shooting.

Now I have apologized to Keith for ruining his thread, I had no call to do that. I applaud you for getting this issue out in the open. I will apologize to you, if things I have done in the past have upset you. The issue I have is what I outlined, blaming someones poor results on others that did not do anything wrong.

George.
 
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At any regular, non championship match, there should be zero reason for someone to shoot If the match director approves and there is every expectation that there will be no conversation, constant moving around or any behavior that would be considered disruptive.
It seems unlikely there would be many, if any ranges where accomodating a couple of testers at one end or the other seperated by a bench or two.
I concentrate on the task at hand, all I require is you do not distract.
 
I learned a long time ago

to pay attention to what is in front of the bench when I shoot, regardless of where I am or what the match is. Talking or movement behind or beside me does not bother me. It's simply mind over matter, FOCUS. Everyone should train them self to do that, that a way, they are never bothered. FOCUS.

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
to pay attention to only what is in front of the bench when I shoot, regardless of where I am or what the match is. Talking or movement behind or beside me does not bother me. It's simply mind over matter, FOCUS. Everyone should train them self to do that, that a way, they are never bothered. FOCUS. Anyone with proper hearing protection should be immune from sound around them. I respond to Cease Fire only, unless I want to add something to the conversation :).

In my opinion, anyone who has been competing for decades should be able to focus well enough to not be disturbed by anything but Cease Fire.

Pete
Click to expand...

Pete:

Shooting while oblivious might be your chosen approach but I guarantee you that at Piney Hill not paying attention to what's going on around you will bite you sooner or later.
 
There will never be another time

MaxxPower said:
Pete:

Shooting while oblivious might be your chosen approach but I guarantee you that at Piney Hill not paying attention to what's going on around you will bite you sooner or later.
Click to expand...

I will shoot indoors. The last time I shot at Piney Hill I was sick for two days from the pollution. I won't expose myself to it ever again.

Pete
 
Are you Sure ?

Pete, I have shot Indoors at 3 different venues and not been affected at any of them ! It`s winter time shooting and in very close quarters with folks with possibly with Flu ,Chest Colds,etc.and may be a culprit like on a airplane ! Here at ChickenFoot we run 4 -36"Exhaust fans b/t relays ;and on small matches nothing is needed! Never been to Luray but know many that have , never heard any of them getting pollution sick!
You could have allergys to gun powder ,if so you may need to give it all up before it kills you!

JP once at match said the Earth was moving cause he shot his wind flag and got a zero for a bull , we did not take him sirius most of the time either! JP was a natural comedian though !
 
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I shot there twice

The second time the fumes were very heavy. I went to a hardware store and bought the heaviest painters mask I could find, after the first day. Several people commented they thought I had a good idea with the mask. It helped but still my nose was coated by what got around the mask. Also, a friend from New England was there that weekend and the fumes actually made him sick as well.

To be fair, Keith Royal told me the ventilation had improved a lot since I was there but that got me to wondering how good it can be to be in an enclosed environment where rifles are being shot, so many of them all at once and all day long. I decided it wasn't a healthy environment for me to subject myself to. I have sworn off all of them. Lost my enthusiasm. I test ammo inside but in a environment I can evacuate and wait for things to stabilize. Our club had a big rebuild a few years ago because of the high lead content in the air in the range in total. Big cleanup and new ventilation system.

Pete
 
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Pete may be on to something, long term exposure seems to be causing hallucinations by some. That's just my observation however, really have no facts to back that up.

On a serious note, Piney Hill is a much different place than it was when I started shooting there in 2013, its clean and well ventilated, the club members put in a lot of time and effort to keep it that way.
 
I shot there back in the early days of Piney Hill, & don't remember any problems. Of course my first wife said I couldn't even remember how to get home. I did get some "frostbite" at another venue many years ago. My fault, I guess. A cold dirt floor I wasn't BOOTED UP for.
 
Some of those deleted posts were deleted because they wouldn't make sense once I deleted the others.
 
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