Action Material
- Thread starter Roger T
- Start date
You're right, my comment was not necessary and out of line.
A man will have the grace to be quiet, listen (read in this medium), and pay attention when there's a chance he will learn something. That's why I'm here, to learn. However, I have considerable experience in the sizing of structures and mechanisms, and occasionally can bring something to this table that might help someone. I'll do that when I seen an opportunity, and in the future I won't be condescending to someone here that isn't interested in learning something new or correcting an erroneous notion held about some topic; I'll let it pass, there's nothing worse than an argument with a willful ignoramus bent on remaining that way. Whether you fit that description or not is impossible to determine, all you've demonstrated in this thread is a propensity to stir up a pot, and maybe take a cheap shot at an engineer. That doesn't matter, I have a thick skin.
Thanks Roger T. and whoever you had to help!
Howdy,
I just want to say thank you to Roger T, and whoever it was that helped to get this thread posted again! There is some fascinating info in here, I appreciate that it is restored so I, and presumably others, can have the opportunity to learn!
Thanks!
Greg
Howdy,
I just want to say thank you to Roger T, and whoever it was that helped to get this thread posted again! There is some fascinating info in here, I appreciate that it is restored so I, and presumably others, can have the opportunity to learn!
Thanks!
Greg
4
4Mesh
Guest
Yes
A Remington 700 has a 1.350 receiver ring, with 1.0625 - 16 threads. That's (without looking), a major diameter on the ID of 1.08x or so, so let's say there's .130 per side of material left. Now, stick the same thread or perhaps an inch and an eighth in a 1.450 receiver, and you have an additional 15% more material even if you go to 1-1/8". Now, go up some more, and add another .100 per side, and holy smokes, you're at the point of 200% the material of a Remmy. The Remmy has a safety margin of probably 100% built in. How much overhead do we need? Consider too, the bigger you make the thread, the less stress the receiver takes because now there's barrel there. So, there comes a point where the overkill is a bit much.
Is there a benefit of SS over CMS when considering actions? No. The steel wins every time for fatigue and tensile. And it's a damn sure bet for cost, have you ever purchased a bar of 17-4, 15-5 or 18-8? yeehaa.
Pennsylvania Steel sells Flexor that is actually a better material than all the above. I like to think of it as a 4300 series steel on steroids. It'll heat treat harder than 4100 or 4300 series. Has higher tensile than either even at higher rockwell. Way higher fatigure resistance. Easy heat treat procedure. Costs a damn site less than PH Stainless. And PAS will sell you the piece you want, ship via UPS and you can pay via CC. Machining index is very near the 41/43 steels, if not lower iirc. (not much diff if it is lower, or higher). You will require quality taps. No import crap for this stuff.
You could also use Flexor for making the inserts in an aluminum action.
/edit
and you can have it nitride'd
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I built my action from EN26. I'm not sure what the SAE equiviliant is, but according to my steel supplier (bohler) it's stronger and tougher (for a given hardness) than 4340.
By all accounts it does the job perfectly and acording to my calculations has a 600% safety factor.
See it here.. http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?59368-Action-Build-Log.&highlight=
Cheers
Leeroy
By all accounts it does the job perfectly and acording to my calculations has a 600% safety factor.
See it here.. http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?59368-Action-Build-Log.&highlight=
Cheers
Leeroy
Roger T
Member
4mesh, On the subject of Nitrieding (QPQ, etc.) or Case Colored (bone charcoal)( I love the old school look)on a CM action. Would/could these processes change any critical dimentions (warping etc) of an action and should the action builder (I'm buying the action)be aware of these post build processes.
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Did you machine the action in the heat treated condition or have that done afterwards?
4
4Mesh
Guest
If you send the work to someone who does quality heat treat work, no, there's not enough distortion to cause any issues. Any process like that causes some, but, we're talking about really splitting hairs. Honestly, I can't imagine an action having an issue with that. Now, with that said, all the work I have ever had done, I always supplied the part to the heattreater with a screw plug that was made up to hold the part. So, in the case of an action, I'd make a barrel plug and put a hanger on that so the heat treater had a hook to hang the part from. I would never do any sort of HT with the part laying down if distortion was a concern. Not even in a fixture. Hang the part. Gravity matters.
This is the primary reason I like using PHSS for actions, is that they heat treat to 46rc at 900f. Not hot enough to distort anything. As for pretty, I prefer my actions ugly.
4
4Mesh
Guest
As an example, we had some parts done a few years back. 30" long, and required to stay straight within nothing. We made hanging fixtures for them, sent em out, and all 6 came back with the bearing diameters and complete surfaces within .002tir over the 30". Miraculous. Now, it wasn't cheap. >$1K / part. But, priceless work. No question I could not do that, simply don't have the equipment. These were Nitraloy if you cared. Same stuff you could use for an action. All those steels act the same for all our purposes.
Engrbill
Member
Remember Aero E
Remember when you argue with a fool, they are doing the same thing. -----Bill)
Remember when you argue with a fool, they are doing the same thing. -----Bill)
Yes mate that is how i did it. I didn't trust the local heat treat shop to do it without distortion so i machined it after heat treatment. Ok for one or two but far too hard on the tooling for production..
It's been great. On to the second bbl now. Moving up from the 6.5x47L to a 7mm Shehane.. I just couldn't get the verticle out at 1K with the Lapua..
We'll see how the shehane goes.. The action it's self has performed flawlessly, which i am very pleased about..
Cheerrs
Leeroy
I opened the door for removing the off topic posts, and I'll edit the not relevent or peripherally relevent parts of mine that remain if the time comes. I am not going to hold my breath.
Thanks.
4
4Mesh
Guest
My sentiments exactly, except I do my own small parts heat treat.
I had an action once that was from a manufacturer that did heat treat and then machined. Evidently, they figured out that machining the stuff that way was pretty difficult because mine was soft as butter. Of the other commercially made actions I've seen or owned, they all fall within the hardness range where really they could go either way. I usually think of 41 or 42 as the cutoff point. Past that, and things are just too tough to deal with in large numbers. Below that and the action will be too soft for prolonged use (IMO). Well anyhow, those are the numbers I see on customs as well as Remmys, Winnies or Savages. When you hit 44rc, you better have serious quality taps or endmills, or use indexable tooling. For the typical hobbiest who doesn't have the stuff Leeroy has to work with, any of the materials mentioned in this thread (cept the aluminum) is gonna be challenging to work with when hardened that much. In my case, I've done actions in both carbon steel and stainless. Both were heat treated after machining. The steel actually worked just as nice as the stainless, even though it was in the oven at 1725F. After quenching, the bolt would not go in the receiver till the temp stabilized, then it fit. Just that small difference was enough to twist the action to where the bolt would not go in. Worked beautifully once the whole thing was to a temp you could handle without gloves. Shocked me really, I was expecting that to need re-work, perhaps to the internal grinder. Never happened.
Wouldn't this just be differential cooling? Not really warpage at all?
guess I thought all complex or close-fitting partts needed to be normalized before trying fit.....
al
4
4Mesh
Guest
Al,
I suppose it might have been, but, it didn't make much sense.
If you'd ever seen one of my actions, they're really beefy. And, they don't have great big holes anywhere with thin cross sectional area around em.
When this action was still so warm you could pick it up and try it, but, had to be quick, sorta like a hot-potato. At that point, the bolt still would not go in the receiver, and, if anything, it should have been big, not small. Yes, it was bent from the heat, but, I wasn't expecting it to be unbent after it cooled some more. As heavy as they are, I never figured there'd be enough differential to keep the bolt from sliding in. The fact that I was able to pick it up, even for seconds, meant to me it had to be below 160 or so. And, it's not like one side was cold. How much differential could there be? The bolt body is only 4.8" long, and it didn't even begin going in, probably didn't make it 2".
Well, it might not have surprised some, but, even after heat treating a gazillion parts in my day, this surprised me. At that temp, I would have expected 5 or 7 tenths of extra room, not the other way around. And, my bolts are not all that tight really. Not like a Bat anyhow.
I suppose it might have been, but, it didn't make much sense.
If you'd ever seen one of my actions, they're really beefy. And, they don't have great big holes anywhere with thin cross sectional area around em.
When this action was still so warm you could pick it up and try it, but, had to be quick, sorta like a hot-potato. At that point, the bolt still would not go in the receiver, and, if anything, it should have been big, not small. Yes, it was bent from the heat, but, I wasn't expecting it to be unbent after it cooled some more. As heavy as they are, I never figured there'd be enough differential to keep the bolt from sliding in. The fact that I was able to pick it up, even for seconds, meant to me it had to be below 160 or so. And, it's not like one side was cold. How much differential could there be? The bolt body is only 4.8" long, and it didn't even begin going in, probably didn't make it 2".
Well, it might not have surprised some, but, even after heat treating a gazillion parts in my day, this surprised me. At that temp, I would have expected 5 or 7 tenths of extra room, not the other way around. And, my bolts are not all that tight really. Not like a Bat anyhow.