A historical question:

M

Michael Petrov

Guest
When and where would you say that the birth of a rifle shooting jacketed bullets and using smokeless powder capable of consistent sub-moa accuracy first appeared in America?

There is no right or wrong answer I’m just curious as to what folks believe or for that matter if it’s something that you ever took an interest in.
Thanks,
 
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Michael

Good question.

I'll admit that I'm very prejudiced, being a former Hi-Power shooter and current collector of US National Match ammunition.

I'm sure there were cartridges during the last years of the 19th Century capable of meeting and exceeding the sub-1 MOA test. Whether they were able to do it consistently, at all distances, is another thing. But, as early as 1908, the new Cal .30 Model 1906 cartridge and Springfield M1903 Rifle were doing it both consistently and at long range. Early lots of PALMA and Olympic ammunition tested at Frankford Arsenal hovered right around the 1 MOA mark. For example, the 1908 Olympic ammunition was officially recorded at .9 MOA at 600 yards. Standard National Match ammunition lagged behind, but not by far. By 1921 the famous "Tin Can" Match ammunition was tested right at 1 MOA at 600 yards and after that year most NM ammunition held under 1 MOA. The 1924 National Match tested at .75 MOA at 600 yards, a record that would stand until 1962.

Of course, by the 1930s there were many small caliber wildcats capable of besting the Cal .30, at the shorter distances. But for consistency I'd say it was the first.

As usual, this is JMHO. Maybe German will chime in with his opinion.

Ray
 
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Ray, German, Thanks for posting on the subject.

When I'm working on a project I like to learn what other folks think about something and see if I've missed the ball completely.

I ask some questions before I published anything on the .400-Whelen and now I wished I had saved the responses.
It was something along the lines of "How would you describe the .400-Whelen to someone?"
 
How accurate were the 30/40 Kregs when they were the service rifle? I remember seeing some custom hunting rifles made on that action in the '50s.

Bill
 
Michael

I posted a reply but it seems to have been lost in cyberspace.

What I said was, I assume you are familiar with the .400 Whelen cartridges made at Frankford Arsenal in the early 1920s? I have one or two in my collection and other collectors that I know have some also. Maj Whelen was C.O. in 1921 and I'm sure he took advantage of his priviledges of rank and used the facilities to help develop his cartridge. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Bill - The 30-40 was used in match competition in the late 1890s and early 1900s. It wasn't a very good combination, when compared with the later Cal .30 M1906, but I suppose it was adequate in it's time. The nitro powders and cupro-nickel bullets didn't help. There were a few "Match" cartridges developed but they weren't much better than the service rounds and some were even worse. By the time shooters figured out how to make the Krag shoot reasonably well, the '03 was available and it became moot.

The Krag is one of the smoothest actions built and it is a pleasure to shoot. It makes a handy hunting rifle for deer sized animals. I have one that I sporterized but gave it to my son a few years ago.

Ray
 
Might find this interesting, from an article by Townsend Whelen 1913 "High Power Rifle Chambers and Bullet Upset".

img253.jpg
 
Those are some terrible groups for the service ammunition. I read that the early 30-40 Krag service ammo was no better than 6" groups at 200yards. It looks like Whelen's figure bears that out.

The groups that I quoted in my first post are for National Match lots for the various years. Evidently they used some sort of machine rest. The test groups are not necessarily indicative of what the cartridges were actually capable of because they used several different barrels over the course of the testing and then simply averaged the results. It wasn't until 1962 that Lake City Arsenal conducted more controlled tests. When they re-tested some of the older Frankford Arsenal lots they were able to produce better groups, as much as 1 inch mean radius difference.

Ray
 
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Paper patched bullets came first then the gradual evelution to smokeless powders Like Kings semi smokeless powders used in many rifles gave more pressure and leading of the barrels.
I think the early repeaters were responsable for the developement of the jacket bullets,
My guess is some time in the turn of the century and from Europe. The early German military rifles like the early mausers were some of the first. The early model 88 comission models come to mind. Barns cartridges of the world can give you a general time span.
I hope this helps some
 
MP -
Howdy !

IMHO.... the really accurate ( repeatable ) sub-MOA cartridge/rifle certainly made its prescence felt when Rem brought out factory-made .222s in thier bolt rifle(s) in the early 50's.

This chambering made more accurate shots MORE plausible and more easily achieved to a wider cross section of American
( and even European ) shooters. In the mid-late 70's, NOTHING out-of-the box could out-shoot a factory Savage 112V chambrered in .222 .

It had enough range capability and power to make it usefull to thousands of shooters across the U.S.
Shooters began to step away from other chamberings, such as .22 Hornet.

Accurate shooting w/ things like a .30-06 was harder for many to achieve, than it was shooting a .222
The .222 also made a substantial contribution to the advancement of bench rest shooting.

The .222 helped to make reloading more affordable than many of the hunting-type cartridges shooters were already reloading. In that sense, in comparison to many other chamberigns; the .222 was economical.

It was a " game changer " in many respects.


IMHO,
.357Mag
 
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