5R cut rifled barrels not recommended by Krieger in 6mm - slower twist then 1-9t

I recently got a 30 caliber 17tw barrel from Krieger and they did not recommend the 5R for that barrel.
 
I have a couple, both 14 twist. One is a Rock Creek, the other a Broughton, RC came to me because of my dabbling in product writing, the B because I misunderstood what a friend had told me when I went in with him and some others on an order. In both cases, my initial impression was not particularly favorable, but after my initial tries, and putting them aside, I took another look, and think that I have been able to do a better job of figuring out how to manage them. One clue came when I was running a patch into one of them. It seemed to enter the rifling with less effort, which made me wonder if that rifling shape reduced the force required to engrave a bullet. Thinking about that, and how 133 seems to like more starting pressure, one day I decided to abandon my preconceived ideas about appropriate charge weight, and venture upward until I found too much pressure or accuracy. At the time, this was done with some 62 grain Watsons, which were, looking back, probably not the best choice. Nevertheless, I found a node, at a few tenths over 30 grains (estimated by my measure setting) that while requiring all of the tricks needed to get it in the case, did produce excellent results. I believe that that was with the RC. Another experiment that I did that day involved securely taping a Possum Hollow trimmer flush with the muzzle which lowered the required charge to about 30 gr, which was easier to get in the case. When I removed the weigh, it returned to its previous measure setting. In any case, I had learned about one of the differences between that barrel and the others that I had experience with. Later, I applied that to the Broughton, and beyond that figured out that it wants to be cleaner than my other barrels need to be, to do their best work, so that I would have to remember to clean it more often.

The bottom line in all of this is that while I was able to get these barrels to perform on the same level as my others, that I found no advantage in them over those with more conventional rifling. If I were shopping for a slow twist 6mm barrel today, it would be a conventionally rifled four groove from one of the proven cut barrel manufacturers.
 
I agree with Boyds last statement. Why throw another variable into the fire. This game is hard enough. Lee
 
I have rifled many 5R barrels, and I would agree that 5R rifling in a PPC or other slow twist 6mm barrel is problematic. Some have been able to get them to shoot acceptably, but as Boyd said it does require a hot load. I think he is probably on the right track. There is also a possibly that 5R rifling does not provide the alignment and guidance needed for a short bearing surface bullet in 6mm caliber.

On the other hand, in a slow twist .30 caliber many people have shot very well with 5R barrels. In IBS score shooting plenty of 25x targets have been shot with 5R barrels. Ken Livengood and Herb Llewellyn are two shooters that come to mind that have shot very well with them.
 
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The easiest way I can explain it is because the short jacket bullets don't like the 5R style rifling. Just not enough bearing surface on the jacket for the "R" style rifling to drive the bullet. If a short range BR shooter ask me for a 5R rifled barrel in a 1-13.5 twist I tell them we won't make it. If he insists then I will but I tell him flat out I will not warranty the barrel because he complains it doesn't shoot good. I tell guys the best you will get out of them is upper .2xx's to flat .3xx's. Nothing more.

So it goes back to the question...."What is your accuracy requirement?"

All my long range guns use the 5R rifling though. My last 6mm build was a 6 Creedmoor. It's a 1-8 twist with the 5R. If you drive the gun right it's a 1/4moa gun off the bench with 105 hybrids and the 105 Hornady's that I've shot thru it. The long heavy bullets in 6mm with the longer bearing surface doesn't seem to be bothered at all by the caliber. This seems to only apply to 6mm.

My 6ppc bench gun is a conventional 5 groove barrel. I've shot groups with it in the .1xx's and besides me shooting it....it was tested in controlled conditions in a tunnel and the gun had groups down in the zeros and shot .1xx's with no problems.

I do feel the 5 groove barrels in conjunction with the "R" style rifling will distort and upset the bullet jacket less and it helps fight bullet failure which is more of a problem for a long range shooter than a short range shooter.

There is a old saying that if you want hardcore accuracy go with conventional rifling. I only agree with this to the extent of the short jacket 6mm bullets though.

I also don't like .236" bore barrels in 6mm. For long range shooters I feel it works against you with bullet failure. So all of my 6mm's are standard .237" bores.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Thank you for the reply Frank. Your expertise here is very much appreciated.

Your welcome Dusty!

My cut off for 5R barrels in 6mm for the lightest weight type bullets would be around 85gr. Anything lighter I say go with conventional rifling. Doesn't matter if it's a 4 groove, conventional 5 or 6, 3 etc.......

My conventional 5 groove 6ppc barrel is also a .237" bore. I should've mentioned that earlier.

The .236" bores don't give you anything extra. My last couple of long range .236" bore barrels (both 4 groove) the bullets would fail. Blow up/come apart by around the 700 yard mark. I was able to pin it down to the lot of bullets as the problem but the .236" bore I feel doesn't help at all. Your just squeezing the jacket more and if the jackets vary to much from lot to lot in thickness the rifling can be cutting thru the jacket / stressing the jacket more and with conventional rifling I feel it can leave more of stress point on the jacket as well. .236" bore and conventional rifling I feel is going to work against you. Maybe not all the time but I feel it's going the wrong way. If a guy insists on a .236" bore barrel for a long range gun and ask for a 4 groove/conventional rifling I try and talk him into a 5R rifled barrel.

Later, Frank
 
The easiest way I can explain it is because the short jacket bullets don't like the 5R style rifling. Just not enough bearing surface on the jacket for the "R" style rifling to drive the bullet. If a short range BR shooter ask me for a 5R rifled barrel in a 1-13.5 twist I tell them we won't make it. If he insists then I will but I tell him flat out I will not warranty the barrel because he complains it doesn't shoot good. I tell guys the best you will get out of them is upper .2xx's to flat .3xx's. Nothing more.

So it goes back to the question...."What is your accuracy requirement?"

All my long range guns use the 5R rifling though. My last 6mm build was a 6 Creedmoor. It's a 1-8 twist with the 5R. If you drive the gun right it's a 1/4moa gun off the bench with 105 hybrids and the 105 Hornady's that I've shot thru it. The long heavy bullets in 6mm with the longer bearing surface doesn't seem to be bothered at all by the caliber. This seems to only apply to 6mm.

My 6ppc bench gun is a conventional 5 groove barrel. I've shot groups with it in the .1xx's and besides me shooting it....it was tested in controlled conditions in a tunnel and the gun had groups down in the zeros and shot .1xx's with no problems.

I do feel the 5 groove barrels in conjunction with the "R" style rifling will distort and upset the bullet jacket less and it helps fight bullet failure which is more of a problem for a long range shooter than a short range shooter.

There is a old saying that if you want hardcore accuracy go with conventional rifling. I only agree with this to the extent of the short jacket 6mm bullets though.

I also don't like .236" bore barrels in 6mm. For long range shooters I feel it works against you with bullet failure. So all of my 6mm's are standard .237" bores.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Interesting Frank. Thanks for the explanation. I shoot short range and have seen several good shooting barrels that fall into this category, though. It may also explain a 30 cal 5C barrel I had a few years back that simply would not shoot better than about a high .3-low .4 with a specific 10 ogive bullet. That bullet had a very short bearing surface but shot fine in another barrel. This barrel shot great with any other bullet I tried in it, too....just not that particular 10 ogiv'er. I won lots of wood with it.

What's most puzzling is why this hasn't been talked about more, previously. If it's as you describe, it should be painfully obvious. I've got a 13 twist .2368/.2429 barrel in the shop now, with canted rifling. I guess we'll have to try it or punt.

Nevertheless, thanks for your input.--Mike
 
Great info Frank - thank you. Back around 2005 Jim Borden turned me on to some Hart 3 groove barrels he was having good luck with. They had unusually large bores. I still have a blank here I have labeled .2384. The one I was shooting I think was closer to .239. Have you experimented with larger bores like this?
 
Interesting Frank. Thanks for the explanation. I shoot short range and have seen several good shooting barrels that fall into this category, though. It may also explain a 30 cal 5C barrel I had a few years back that simply would not shoot better than about a high .3-low .4 with a specific 10 ogive bullet. That bullet had a very short bearing surface but shot fine in another barrel. This barrel shot great with any other bullet I tried in it, too....just not that particular 10 ogiv'er. I won lots of wood with it.

What's most puzzling is why this hasn't been talked about more, previously. If it's as you describe, it should be painfully obvious. I've got a 13 twist .2368/.2429 barrel in the shop now, with canted rifling. I guess we'll have to try it or punt.

Nevertheless, thanks for your input.--Mike

Mike, I apply the logic to short jacket .30cal. bullets like the 125gr. and lighter and in .224cal. with bullets of 55gr and lighter. Use conventional rifling but off hand I don't feel normally the .224cal. and .30cal are as temperamental as the 6mm's are but again if it we're my gun I was building that's what I would use.

Why not talked about as much? Like I tell everyone you have to ask questions. It's hard to be everywhere at one time and catching every conversation etc...

Later, Frank
 
Great info Frank - thank you. Back around 2005 Jim Borden turned me on to some Hart 3 groove barrels he was having good luck with. They had unusually large bores. I still have a blank here I have labeled .2384. The one I was shooting I think was closer to .239. Have you experimented with larger bores like this?

The largest we've done in 6mm has been like a .2375" bore and we've made the grooves different sizes. As long as the barrels bore is uniform a slightly larger bore in terms of practical accuracy shouldn't hurt anything with in reason. We made some special oversize bore test barrels in .308win. When they tested them they we're comparing them to min. spec. bore sizes. They used high speed photography and recorded how the bullet traveled thru the air. The bullets had no rifling marks from the grooves. Just from the lands. The pitch and yaw as I remember correctly in the photography was more but the accuracy was there. Velocity was the same. The grooves we're running .3087" to almost .3090".

We've made 3 groove barrels, 8 groove barrels etc...and don't see a difference in the number of grooves as far as accuracy and barrel life goes.

I feel the bullets quality and size has a lot to do with it as much as the barrel does.

Later, Frank
 
This is completely anecdotal, but my best 6mm Dasher barrel (out of only three) is a 8.25 to 7.75 gain twist Bartlein with .236 bore. I shoot it at 600 yards and use 32.0 - 32.5 grains of Varget and the 105 gr. Hybrid bullet from Berger. My other two barrels are also .236 bore and are 8 twist. Good shooting....James Mock
 
Thank you for the good info, Frank!

The largest we've done in 6mm has been like a .2375" bore and we've made the grooves different sizes. As long as the barrels bore is uniform a slightly larger bore in terms of practical accuracy shouldn't hurt anything with in reason. We made some special oversize bore test barrels in .308win. When they tested them they we're comparing them to min. spec. bore sizes. They used high speed photography and recorded how the bullet traveled thru the air. The bullets had no rifling marks from the grooves. Just from the lands. The pitch and yaw as I remember correctly in the photography was more but the accuracy was there. Velocity was the same. The grooves we're running .3087" to almost .3090".

We've made 3 groove barrels, 8 groove barrels etc...and don't see a difference in the number of grooves as far as accuracy and barrel life goes.

I feel the bullets quality and size has a lot to do with it as much as the barrel does.

Later, Frank

Spot on! ;) Going back a couple of posts, I concur with your .236 bore response - in my experience, there is nothing wrong with a tight bore, that a proper bore (in this example .237') won't cure. Customer feed-back has me gun shy of the .236 barrels - at least when I use J4 jackets - the bullet failure rate is MUCH higher, than via .237" bores from the same maker(s)! :eek: With custom BR quality bullets, there is no reason to opt for "tight" bore/groove dimensions.

BTW, my Bartlein 5R .308 barrel (.30BR chamber) shoots my ten ogive bullets quite well, while some competitors "5R" barrels do/did not - there were/are obvious differences in the geometries - especially the width on the top of the lands. So, I jumped to the conclusion that size/shape probably play a significant role in the variable chain. Again, empirical evidence - customer feed-back - strongly suggests that, for long/heavy bullets, made with J4 jackets, the 5R rifling mitigates bullet failure, while delivering excellent precision.

Having stated that, all of my other Bartlein barrels, intended for short/light bullets for point-blank bench-rest, are conventional [4] land barrels, including my 1:9" 25's which, despite the long heavy bullets (110 Gr.) have been stacking up a fair amount of fake wood the last two summers. The conventional [4 groove] Bartleins have yet to destroy a .25 Cal bullet. I believe this is, largely, due to the thick jackets! RG
 
Less jacket deformation likely translates to lower starting pressures. If that's relative to the issue of poor accuracy from the 5R style rifling in slow twist, light bullet combinations discussed here, could we not go about reaching more optimal pressures by other means, such as powders? The new LT30 comes to mind.
Thanks!--Mike
 
Less jacket deformation likely translates to lower starting pressures. If that's relative to the issue of poor accuracy from the 5R style rifling in slow twist, light bullet combinations discussed here, could we not go about reaching more optimal pressures by other means, such as powders? The new LT30 comes to mind.
Thanks!--Mike

I wouldn't think LT30 would increase the starting pressure but change the slope of the pressure curve. Thicker brass, stronger brass, steeper lead angle, harder bullet material I can see increasing the starting pressure.
 
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