D
Don Stith
Guest
Key Word BLACK POWDER
Don
Don
QUANTITY of water?
I posted some time ago about the quantity of water but the numbers were so small that those people that believed in "water-in-bore" just ignored it. I think I came up with one drop about .001 in diameter...if it somehow got collected or condensed into one drop. Normally the water would condense out on the surface of the bore but I suppose there could be some phenomenon that would move it into a drop. If a small quantity of water was condensed on bore surface then Tim's comment that it could be detected on a patch would make sense. (Actually this was exactly the result you should get based on the quantity of water I had in my post.)
The whole idea that several drops of water of any significant size could be formed in the bore just isn't logical if natural physical laws are followed. (I have noted though, that many things that have to do with benchrest seem to follow supernatural laws!)
I posted some time ago about the quantity of water but the numbers were so small that those people that believed in "water-in-bore" just ignored it. I think I came up with one drop about .001 in diameter...if it somehow got collected or condensed into one drop. Normally the water would condense out on the surface of the bore but I suppose there could be some phenomenon that would move it into a drop. If a small quantity of water was condensed on bore surface then Tim's comment that it could be detected on a patch would make sense. (Actually this was exactly the result you should get based on the quantity of water I had in my post.)
The whole idea that several drops of water of any significant size could be formed in the bore just isn't logical if natural physical laws are followed. (I have noted though, that many things that have to do with benchrest seem to follow supernatural laws!)
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J Pappas
Guest
Lynn....
Lynn, you and 14 other people got the test. You are the only one out of 15 people that has posted anything about it. We don't know how to do the secret test.
Lynn, you and 14 other people got the test. You are the only one out of 15 people that has posted anything about it. We don't know how to do the secret test.
2 questions, one serious, one not:
"Next was the water test, this is shoot three rapid shots, the third round just pull back the bolt enough for the empty case to clear the chamber, not eject, then close the bolt on the empty round, then wait at least one minute, eject the empty, insert the fourth round and fire."
1) What is the point of this procedure? If you need to wait, why not either chamber a fresh one and wait, or just leave the expended case in the chamber and wait, before reloading and shooting? Why partially open bolt, then close with empty case in it?
2) Is there enough water in the bore to set off dowsing rods?
"Next was the water test, this is shoot three rapid shots, the third round just pull back the bolt enough for the empty case to clear the chamber, not eject, then close the bolt on the empty round, then wait at least one minute, eject the empty, insert the fourth round and fire."
1) What is the point of this procedure? If you need to wait, why not either chamber a fresh one and wait, or just leave the expended case in the chamber and wait, before reloading and shooting? Why partially open bolt, then close with empty case in it?
2) Is there enough water in the bore to set off dowsing rods?
Since when does water condense on warm/hot surfaces? Or are you guys lugging around some kind of water-cooling rigs for your barrels now, and they're so cold all the time that they are indeed collecting condensation? I don't dispute the results people see from the test on the target, but I think the cause of the results has certainly got to be something else.
R
Rich In Kansas
Guest
As I mentioned early in this thread I have tested with a chrono and good conditions and wind. If it is windy, pulling back the empty for a moment to let in fresh air may remove some of the gas you can see. But not all. If it is calm, the only time you can really see if you are getting flyers, the gas takes some time to dissipate unless you blow threw the barrel. More than a minute. A chrono I will say again shows higher velocity when the gas is in the barrel and lower velocity with regular air. The gas must present less resistance to the bullet is all I can guess. Anyhow doing the test your way I don't see what you prove. If you always shoot with the gas in the barrel you get one velocity. If you always shoot with the gas cleared from the barrel you get another, albeit a small difference. Shooting at a constant pace will give a more consistence velocity. Anyhow in the real world of rimfire benchrest if conditions are such that you have to wait a while to shoot it makes more sense to just fire a shot off the target so as to keep a more consistent pace and velocity.
Water test
Lynn,
I've look high & low on the 35,000 view Calfee thread that was first on the centerfire forum & is now on the General forum. Perhaps I'm going blind, but I can't see directions for the water test.
Please, when you have the time, would you either point me to the exact post where he gives the procedure, or just quote what he has written on it?
Regards, Ron
Lynn,
I've look high & low on the 35,000 view Calfee thread that was first on the centerfire forum & is now on the General forum. Perhaps I'm going blind, but I can't see directions for the water test.
Please, when you have the time, would you either point me to the exact post where he gives the procedure, or just quote what he has written on it?
Regards, Ron
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Douglas
Guest
Fellas, if we continue to debate theories (is or isn't water present), we are heading down the wrong path and this usually ends up with arguments that nobody can win. The merits of the test speak for themselves, I think whether or not there is water is irrelevant. When you fire three rounds and wait at least one minute to fire the fourth, it will be a flipper and your tuner adjustment needs attention. Obviously, consistant intervals between shots would be ideal, for instance fire a round every 30 seconds. But the reality of the situation is not always practable, especially when you are shooting against the clock. Thanks, Douglas
S
steve
Guest
Can someone explain how adjusting the tuner prevents water from building up in the bore?
Completely unnecessary.
Big Bang!....
Okay, here's what happens when a round is fired. A few fractions of a second after firing the case and throat is left filled with high temperature gas, at maybe a 1000 degrees, that contains a lot of stuff, some of which is steam. After a few more seconds the gas cools down and some of the steam turns into small water droplets, that is, fog. After a few more seconds the gas cools down to a few hundred degrees and more water droplets form, some collecting on the bore and some dropping to the bottom of the bore. This cooling and dropping out of various elements and compounds is exactly what occurred during the initial seconds of the big bang!
If a bullet is fired with the water in the barrel there can be a change to the friction and weight of the bullet and thus affect it's flight. This causes the vibration, and especially the recoil vibration to be different. The effect on recoil vibration and poi was all explained by Varmint Al in previous posts. Manipulating the weight on the end of the barrel can reduce the effects of the change in vibration.
This confirms that what Calfee and Lynn have been saying is true. The amount of gas, and water in the gas, is extremely small and thus the effect on vibration or bullet flight is also very small. The effect on poi might be .001", or it may be .010", or it could be .100". All evidence points to it being closer to .001 than to .100, but shooters come to different opinions on this based on their experiences.
Okay, here's what happens when a round is fired. A few fractions of a second after firing the case and throat is left filled with high temperature gas, at maybe a 1000 degrees, that contains a lot of stuff, some of which is steam. After a few more seconds the gas cools down and some of the steam turns into small water droplets, that is, fog. After a few more seconds the gas cools down to a few hundred degrees and more water droplets form, some collecting on the bore and some dropping to the bottom of the bore. This cooling and dropping out of various elements and compounds is exactly what occurred during the initial seconds of the big bang!
If a bullet is fired with the water in the barrel there can be a change to the friction and weight of the bullet and thus affect it's flight. This causes the vibration, and especially the recoil vibration to be different. The effect on recoil vibration and poi was all explained by Varmint Al in previous posts. Manipulating the weight on the end of the barrel can reduce the effects of the change in vibration.
This confirms that what Calfee and Lynn have been saying is true. The amount of gas, and water in the gas, is extremely small and thus the effect on vibration or bullet flight is also very small. The effect on poi might be .001", or it may be .010", or it could be .100". All evidence points to it being closer to .001 than to .100, but shooters come to different opinions on this based on their experiences.
Dave S
NRA Benefactor Member
Maybe I am missing something here, which is very possible with this old mind, but if you do the three shots in one group, wait a minute and shoot the fourth shot and it goes into the same group, indicating that you have gotten the "muzzle stopped" test, then what is the importance of a little moisture in the barrel.?? And why wouldn't the moisture in the barrel still cause the fourth shot to be a "flipper", even in a "stopped muzzle".??
I would think that if the muzzle is stopped, and the last shot goes into the same group, who gives a **it of there is a little moisture in the barrel or not.. And, wouldn't the air in the barrel, ahead of the bullet, push the moisture out of the barrel ahead of the bullet..??
Inquiring minds want to know..
Thanks
Dave
I would think that if the muzzle is stopped, and the last shot goes into the same group, who gives a **it of there is a little moisture in the barrel or not.. And, wouldn't the air in the barrel, ahead of the bullet, push the moisture out of the barrel ahead of the bullet..??
Inquiring minds want to know..
Thanks
Dave
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Fred K
Guest
Maybe it acts like a glass ice water during high humidity. The hot moist air in the bore condenses because the bore is much cooler.
Fred K
Fred K
I guarantee you the bore is nowhere near the temperature of the side of a glass of ice water. Water condenses on the side of that glass because the glass is cool, not because of it's temperature relative to the air. If you raise the temperature of that glass by 50 degrees, and the air by 50 degrees, it's still the same relative difference. But you're not going to see any condensation on it anymore.
correction...
Shorty asked: So, you're saying that water condensation is occuring at above boiling temperature
Your right, my approximations of temperature drop was too rough. I should have indicated the water would not start forming until temperature had dropped several hundred degrees, and then after that it need only drop a few more degrees until larger drops form. In any case we do have to get below the dew point of the gas in the bore before any water is formed.
Shorty asked: So, you're saying that water condensation is occuring at above boiling temperature
Your right, my approximations of temperature drop was too rough. I should have indicated the water would not start forming until temperature had dropped several hundred degrees, and then after that it need only drop a few more degrees until larger drops form. In any case we do have to get below the dew point of the gas in the bore before any water is formed.
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Tom C.
Guest
has a chemical analysis been done on the
substance in the bore to make sure it is water? could
it be the gas vapors turning to liquid. i don't think burnt
powder vapor would be h2o would it?
substance in the bore to make sure it is water? could
it be the gas vapors turning to liquid. i don't think burnt
powder vapor would be h2o would it?