Hokum and more Hokum. You can get a missed shot in ara and still shoot a great target. The ammo isn't as bad as we could be led to think it is. Changing 50/50 scoring will do nothing for more shooters. A couple ara shooters at best. The bottom line is . if you need a Mulligan shoot Ara. The number of 250s compared to five ten years ago should tell you something.
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275 scoring in 50/50
- Thread starter GordonE
- Start date
Hokum and more Hokum. You can get a missed shot in ara and still shoot a great target. The ammo isn't as bad as we could be led to think it is. Changing 50/50 scoring will do nothing for more shooters. A couple ara shooters at best. The bottom line is . if you need a Mulligan shoot Ara. The number of 250s compared to five ten years ago should tell you something.
I suspect this has more to do with one old drama queen and a burning desire to stay relevant than anything else.
Always nice to get the game changing advise by the guy that has'nt fired a shot in a match in about 20 years.
Was easier when he was droning on about his f.....g bent truck antenna .
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T
TangoTwo
Guest
Hi Gordon,
Not sure what the specific rift was. It happened about the time I started shooting benchrest. If memory serves, story goes things blew up at a nationals in South Carolina I think. For a time RBA had a good following. First indoor match I ever shot was RBA at the Tuckertown barn. There were 40-50 shooters. Another time at a two day match they had about seventy shooters. Eleven benches, seven relays, we didn't get done shooing until about 6:30 pm on Sunday. The split hurt IR numbers substantially.
Milt could be abrasive. If he saw something he didn't like there was a new rule on the spot. One thing he wasn't was wishy washy that rubbed some the wrong way and led to the eventual split.
Harry Deneen. Bob Holbruner. Paul Wilmoth or the Collins boys were all there at the time. Maybe they can add to the history.
Ken
Not sure what the specific rift was. It happened about the time I started shooting benchrest. If memory serves, story goes things blew up at a nationals in South Carolina I think. For a time RBA had a good following. First indoor match I ever shot was RBA at the Tuckertown barn. There were 40-50 shooters. Another time at a two day match they had about seventy shooters. Eleven benches, seven relays, we didn't get done shooing until about 6:30 pm on Sunday. The split hurt IR numbers substantially.
Milt could be abrasive. If he saw something he didn't like there was a new rule on the spot. One thing he wasn't was wishy washy that rubbed some the wrong way and led to the eventual split.
Harry Deneen. Bob Holbruner. Paul Wilmoth or the Collins boys were all there at the time. Maybe they can add to the history.
Ken
Pete Roberson
New member
Participation Pins
Just give them all 250 pins like we give the kids participation ribbons and call it good!!!
Just give them all 250 pins like we give the kids participation ribbons and call it good!!!
D
Dave Shattuck
Guest
Dave
As you know all about the 2002 nationals.How many sporter shooters were there? Also What was the riff with Milt Cook?
Ken Henderson
Your input is also welcome.
Gordon,
It was at the 2000 Nationals in Charlotte, NC when the falling out became apparent.
And as for how many shot the Sporter Class: everybody but just a few participated in the Sporter Class, so my guess would be 120+ shooters shot the Sporter, and I think it was either Scotty Hamilton or H.L. Wickham who won it that year.
I don't remember the exact number of attendees as the Club had also scheduled a High Power Rapid Fire Pistol event on the range immediately to our right, and only ±100 feet off of bench #40 from where we were shooting. We all had to utilize the same parking lot so it was super tight, the noise was deafening, and they were relying on our food truck for their food, so there was no where near enough food or drink for everyone as we hadn't planned on the extra 60 to 80 shooters utilizing our food source, plus they were using our Port-A-Potties, which meant everything either ran out or filled up fast. It was crazy, and hot. Plus, it had rained heavily for a few days before we got started, and where everything is clay down there the water didn't sink in so at times there was a fog from all the water evaporating as we went along.
By the end of the weekend we had all been informed in one way or another how the RBA was coming into play before the next season.
It's a much longer story that, but I won't go into it here as there are some who wouldn't appreciate it in the least. And at this point in time, what would be gained by doing so.
And as for Milt, you had to know the man to appreciate where he was coming from. He and I had spent many a hour on the phone sharing ideas (venting so to speak), so maybe some of it was my fault?
Dave Shattuck
tonykharper
Well-known member
Gordon,
It was at the 2000 Nationals in Charlotte, NC when the falling out became apparent.
And as for how many shot the Sporter Class: everybody but just a few participated in the Sporter Class, so my guess would be 120+ shooters shot the Sporter, and I think it was either Scotty Hamilton or H.L. Wickham who won it that year.
I don't remember the exact number of attendees as the Club had also scheduled a High Power Rapid Fire Pistol event on the range immediately to our right, and only ±100 feet off of bench #40 from where we were shooting. We all had to utilize the same parking lot so it was super tight, the noise was deafening, and they were relying on our food truck for their food, so there was no where near enough food or drink for everyone as we hadn't planned on the extra 60 to 80 shooters utilizing our food source, plus they were using our Port-A-Potties, which meant everything either ran out or filled up fast. It was crazy, and hot. Plus, it had rained heavily for a few days before we got started, and where everything is clay down there the water didn't sink in so at times there was a fog from all the water evaporating as we went along.
By the end of the weekend we had all been informed in one way or another how the RBA was coming into play before the next season.
It's a much longer story that, but I won't go into it here as there are some who wouldn't appreciate it in the least. And at this point in time, what would be gained by doing so.
And as for Milt, you had to know the man to appreciate where he was coming from. He and I had spent many a hour on the phone sharing ideas (venting so to speak), so maybe some of it was my fault?
Dave Shattuck
Dave,
If we had 120 + or - sporter shooters in 2000 at the Nationals what has happened to them?
Can you think of anything that may bring some of them back?
I guess I should ask one more question do you think it desirable to have more sporter shooters at our National events?
Looking for ideas .
TKH
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Tony
Back in the day you could get a good Sako sporter for a 1000.00 and win once and a while. When is the last time you even saw one at a match. In 2002 i would bet there was 75 of them. Back then if you had a threaded Anchutz you were king. Sure a Sako could win once and a while. Then Flash made a Turbo Sporter action. No one needed anything but a turbo after that.
Back in the day you could get a good Sako sporter for a 1000.00 and win once and a while. When is the last time you even saw one at a match. In 2002 i would bet there was 75 of them. Back then if you had a threaded Anchutz you were king. Sure a Sako could win once and a while. Then Flash made a Turbo Sporter action. No one needed anything but a turbo after that.
tonykharper
Well-known member
Tony
Back in the day you could get a good Sako sporter for a 1000.00 and win once and a while. When is the last time you even saw one at a match. In 2002 i would bet there was 75 of them. Back then if you had a threaded Anchutz you were king. Sure a Sako could win once and a while. Then Flash made a Turbo Sporter action. No one needed anything but a turbo after that.
I guess you are saying Turbo/stiller sporters are so expensive no one can afford them?
If that's not what you are saying please advise. IR 50/50 really needs some help if collectively we the shooters want to save it.
I for one would really like to go to a 50/50 National with 100+ Shooters.
Any ideas are welcome!
TKH
Tony
Bring it on Show us what you got. Facts are facts. Hell if you can get a hundred shooters. to a 50/50 match The WLM might even show up. Not saying anything but bringing out the facts. How long did it take you to get a turbo sporter and unload the 52 winchester you had? Deep pockets wins in Unlimited matches. If a shooter can buy several cases of great ammo. How can the average shooter compete until he runs out of that ammo? Sporters can change that. A case of ammo is 1600 a Sporter is around 3500. When the ammo is gone you could have a gun.
Bring it on Show us what you got. Facts are facts. Hell if you can get a hundred shooters. to a 50/50 match The WLM might even show up. Not saying anything but bringing out the facts. How long did it take you to get a turbo sporter and unload the 52 winchester you had? Deep pockets wins in Unlimited matches. If a shooter can buy several cases of great ammo. How can the average shooter compete until he runs out of that ammo? Sporters can change that. A case of ammo is 1600 a Sporter is around 3500. When the ammo is gone you could have a gun.
tonykharper
Well-known member
Tony
Bring it on Show us what you got. Facts are facts. Hell if you can get a hundred shooters. to a 50/50 match The WLM might even show up. Not saying anything but bringing out the facts. How long did it take you to get a turbo sporter and unload the 52 winchester you had? Deep pockets wins in Unlimited matches. If a shooter can buy several cases of great ammo. How can the average shooter compete until he runs out of that ammo? Sporters can change that. A case of ammo is 1600 a Sporter is around 3500. When the ammo is gone you could have a gun.
Gordon,
I have no magic of how to get 100+ shooters to a 50/50 nationals that is why I'm reaching out to everyone hoping some have ideas.
I never had a 52 Winchester, but I did have a SAKO P94.
There was a time when one could out equip the field and win, but that day has passed. I do believe sporters show more of the shooter's influence on the outcome. That is the primary reason I would like to see it prosper once again.
Gun are expensive, ammo is expensive, but no more than dozens of other things people do.
Come on guys let's hear some ideas that may help, rather than gloom and doom.
TKH
I guess you are saying Turbo/stiller sporters are so expensive no one can afford them?
If that's not what you are saying please advise. IR 50/50 really needs some help if collectively we the shooters want to save it.
I for one would really like to go to a 50/50 National with 100+ Shooters.
Any ideas are welcome!
TKH
Since I tend to suspect it boils down to cost/difficulty I wish I knew.
That said, since you shoot as many places & venues as anybody, what are your thoughts on the matter ?
tonykharper
Well-known member
Tony
Thought Killough had Your old sporter for sale for a long time.
Some shooters don't Need a hundred shooters to have a good time and prove anything.
I don't think Dan ever had a sporter of mine.
One can have a good time without anyone but competing against a hundred guys is much more challenging than competing against one or two. It's the challenge that drives some, me included. I realize it doesn't drive everyone. That's why I'm reaching out for ideas.
Is there anything that would get you to attend a sporter National? I don't recall you ever attending one but if you have what would bring you back?
TKH
tonykharper
Well-known member
Since I tend to suspect it boils down to cost/difficulty I wish I knew.
That said, since you shoot as many places & venues as anybody, what are your thoughts on the matter ?
Tim,
I know what drives me, competition. Many think it is winning, but no. If one shoots rimfire only because they like winning, they will not last long.
IR 50/50 needs shooters, and the largest group of shooters I know are the ARA guys. I would like to know what drives most of them, and if there is a way IR 50/50 can offer it maybe we can get more shooters to our National matches.
AS I have said the floor is open for suggestions.
TKH
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A couple of points about the 2000 Nats in Charlotte.
There were 160 shooters registered. All were registered for three guns so we had 160 sporter shooters. 40 benches and 4 relays.
We had a waiting list and there were 3-4 no-shows and those slots were filled from the waiting list. As I remember 160 shooters completed all 6 targets. There may have been a few who left early on Sunday, don't remember for sure.
There was no discussion or planning for RBA until some weeks after the event. Only after Milt sent a letter afterwards to the Charlotte Club and a few of the other Match Directors from nearby clubs banning them and the Tuckertown Indoor range from holding any further IR-50-50 matches did any discussion or planning for RBA begin.
Dave Burton
There were 160 shooters registered. All were registered for three guns so we had 160 sporter shooters. 40 benches and 4 relays.
We had a waiting list and there were 3-4 no-shows and those slots were filled from the waiting list. As I remember 160 shooters completed all 6 targets. There may have been a few who left early on Sunday, don't remember for sure.
There was no discussion or planning for RBA until some weeks after the event. Only after Milt sent a letter afterwards to the Charlotte Club and a few of the other Match Directors from nearby clubs banning them and the Tuckertown Indoor range from holding any further IR-50-50 matches did any discussion or planning for RBA begin.
Dave Burton
W
William Colbert
Guest
You asked for ideas, here is one!
A thought! How about the sporter weight being raised to 8.0 pounds and under, same stock widths as we currently have, 2.25", no forarm stock profile limitations (so long as the current rule of being able to lift the gun straight up and out of the front sand bag without resistance still applies) which will have to be STRICTLY enforced so as not to allow people to have rail guns, keep the same buttstock profile. All wood stock rules remain. Same old 6.5 power scope which makes the sporter the sporter, NOT THE WEIGHT OR THE STOCK PROFILE. There are many many sporters of today that will out shoot a number of heavy guns. Raising the sporter weight to 8.0 pounds and under would enable gunsmiths to build sporters that can have a variable power scope on them. Put a 6-24 power scope on your sporter and shoot it in all classes. Pretty easy, one gun. How cool would that be?
W
A thought! How about the sporter weight being raised to 8.0 pounds and under, same stock widths as we currently have, 2.25", no forarm stock profile limitations (so long as the current rule of being able to lift the gun straight up and out of the front sand bag without resistance still applies) which will have to be STRICTLY enforced so as not to allow people to have rail guns, keep the same buttstock profile. All wood stock rules remain. Same old 6.5 power scope which makes the sporter the sporter, NOT THE WEIGHT OR THE STOCK PROFILE. There are many many sporters of today that will out shoot a number of heavy guns. Raising the sporter weight to 8.0 pounds and under would enable gunsmiths to build sporters that can have a variable power scope on them. Put a 6-24 power scope on your sporter and shoot it in all classes. Pretty easy, one gun. How cool would that be?
W
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tonykharper
Well-known member
A thought! How about the sporter weight being raised to 8.0 pounds and under, same stock widths as we currently have, 2.25", no forarm stock profile limitations (so long as the current rule of being able to lift the gun straight up and out of the front sand bag without resistance still applies) which will have to be STRICTLY enforced so as not to allow people to have rail guns, keep the same buttstock profile. Same old 6.5 power scope which makes the sporter the sporter, NOT THE WEIGHT OR THE STOCK PROFILE. There are many many sporters of today that will out shoot a number of heavy guns. Raising the sporter weight to 8.0 pounds and under would enable gunsmiths to build sporters that can have a variable power scope on them. Put a 6-24 power scope on your sporter and shoot it in all classes. Pretty easy, one gun. How cool would that be?
W
William,
Thanks for the suggestion I will make sure it is presented to the group.
If you think of anything else please bring it forward.
TKH