275 scoring in 50/50

tonykharper said:
Would a new factory sporter class be welcomed?

TKH
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I'd welcome it but as a match director who can schedule only so many dates I wouldn't schedule them. Having said that they could be shot in conjunction with another class & scores sent in separately. The problem with that is if it creates another relay for smaller clubs. Some don't like more relays which I've never understood because were there for the day anyway.
Keith
 
What are you really trying to solve?

A couple of observations for me up to this point in the discussion and a conclusion at the end. Sorry for the dissertation, but I am curious what the real willingness to change actually is at the end of the day.

It isn't clear to me what question is really trying to be answered. There are 3 different things being discussed and would require different strategies for a solution.

A) How do you entice EXISTING shooters (no matter the discipline) to shoot Sporter?
B) How do you entice EXISTING shooters to shoot IR5050 that currently don't?
C) How do we bring NEW shooters into the Sport?

These are very different questions and I think you have to answer them separately. Trying to combine them is a waste of time IMO. We talk a lot about bringing new shooters into the sport and that is a good goal, but in reality this has nothing to do with increasing Sporter or IR5050 participation, it is much more generic of an issue overall for me. Cost, accessibility, and awareness are all valid issues in this area and have been discussed many times. Those answers require a different discussion IMO.

That leaves us with a known quantity for the other two questions trying to be answered, existing shooters. This is the low hanging fruit I think you have to focus on if indeed you want to see real change. Those tasked with coming up with the changes know these shooters well. For the most part, we know what many will do and won't do. The question becomes, is there ANY CHANGE that would entice someone to now start shooting either IR5050 as a whole, or if they already shoot IR, how to get them to shoot new classes like Sporter for which they don't currently shoot for whatever reason. For this class of shooter, money is typically not the reason.

Let's look at the second question first. How do you get more participation in IR5050 from existing shooters who do not currently shoot it at all. What is keeping them from shooting it? The main issues I hear or read are:

1) Scoring rules (like them or hate them, it is the primary issue discussed every time)
2) The need to have multiple guns/rest, etc.
3) Sporter scope limit of 6.5X


So, the question becomes how to address each of these. Some are easier than others hence the reason for this thread.

Scoring:
The real question for me here is: Would you lose more shooters by making a change to the scoring process than you would if you don't. I hear a lot of people complain about the scoring rules, but I am not convinced that would greatly increase participation (people just like to tell others how they need to do things). On the flip side, I am also convinced that if the scoring rules changed to something else, existing shooters would not leave. I suspect not a single existing shooter would leave for this reason. Historical records are a valid concern, but like anything you can't focus on the past and progress to the future.

My answer: Make a change. No matter what you do someone will not like it. Changing nothing gains you zero new shooters from the existing pool. What change has the most potential to bring existing shooters from other disciplines over to IR5050? That is what should be done or you simply are not that concerned with attracting new shooters (that is ok too, but just say that). I know many of you have been shooting IR5050 for years and it is hard to change.

Equipment
The question for me here is how to minimize the maximum amount of equipment one needs to compete (I.E. Reduce cost). I like Ed's outline above which combines 10.5 and 13.5, but creates a factory class. I could see it as:

Sporter (Factory and Custom)
Heavy (Factory and Custom)
Unlimited

One can either shoot in 3 gun Factory or 3 gun Custom. You can't mix. This way it gives the person with a CZ and Anschutz 54 a chance to compete at a lower cost. Unlimited is still Unlimited. It is a simple designation in the scores, no special rules, etc.

As to Sporter participation, one must ask themselves, if these shooters who already are willing and able to spend the money and time to shoot at this level, why are they not shooting Sporter? Most common answer, 6x scope and weight.

Factory class solves the cost issue, but what about the 6x scope and weight. What would it take to make people want to shoot Sporter? I suspect the scope is the biggest hurdle for many. The question becomes at what power would people start to consider it. I suspect 12x may get some more, but is it significant enough to make a big change? I doubt it. The weight is another issue that could probably be solved satisfactorily for most.

6X clearly makes the Sporter class the Sporter class. For me, if we think of hunting (which I suspect sporter class was derived from), I suspect a 3x9 scope is the most common scope out there. Maybe move the scope up to 9X and increase the weight 1/2 to 1 lb and see how it goes.

While all of these changes would potentially be nice, I don't see it changing participation significantly. The guys that don't like 6X aren't going to move over at 9X, or probably even 12X. I agree that anything above that really changes the class too much.

There are only two things I think have real potential to bring in new shooters to IR5050. Change the scoring and update the classes. Even then I would not expect a big change.

Short Conclusion: If you aren't willing to change the two items above fairly significantly, I would just leave it as is and let everyone keep on keeping on.
 
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Hozzie: You talk about changing scoring, but you don't give specifics. What do you think needs changing, please? Bigger/smaller plug? 275 scoring? The process ie protests? I'm at a loss to understand your position. Thanks. bob ps for the record I stopped shooting 3 gun some years ago. I got tired of feeding multiple rifles and multiple rest types. I want to see 3 gun succeed and grow, but I'll stick to UL.
 
mwezell said:
Fair enough. Still an outlier, but in 23 states and growing. Something is working. Whether or not you're paying attention is entirely up to you. Yes, the changes, this game vs IBS did cost us a few regular shooters and I truly hate to see that, as every shooter is important in such a small market. But, overall, the numbers are much better than when we were shooting IBS at our few local ranges that I attended regularly.

Change is a tough thing, especially amongst older men who primarily who make up the sport of BR in general. But, youth and new blood is the life and future of the sport. Outdated rules and problems with how rules get changed with other sanctioning bodies are primary reasons for UBR coming into existence.
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I guess what I'm saying, Mike, while it is always nice to see growth of a new shooting discipline, is it in fact growing because of issues with the other score shooting platforms ? ......I suspect not.
 
Gordon: ARA shooters will shoot IR50 unlimited if it is available to them. Not all, but many. Vice versa not so much unfortunately with exceptions.

I'll use Piney Hill as an example. As most know PH is the major indoor !R50 venue. Winter time IR50 is well attended. I host ARA matches at Piney Hill 2nd weekend of each month in winter. I'd gather 75% of my shooters are IR50 predominantly. Why? It is a long drive for most dedicated ARA types (they are like hens teeth in that part of the world) so travel time is far more of an influence than target type. And most of the guys were at The Barn for ARA matches the first weekend of the month. Two weekends in a row is too much for many of us.

The other side of the coin is The Barn in NC. Predominantly an indoor ARA joint, but is also home of RBA. When they hold IR50 events in conjunction with ARA matches a vast majority of shooters lean toward ARA. They shoot IR50 UL because ii is available.

To me it boils down to where you live, how much driving you can tolerate and what you shoot at home.

The rule book is/was another downer compared to ARA but in the past few years some of the mickey mouse stuff has been removed. To an ARA guy the IR50 rule book can be a PITA. Why a protestor cannot watch the refs, or even be in the vicinity of them when judging a protest is beyond comprehension to me. In ARA you walk your target up to the refs and watch them plug the card. Do that in IR50 and you risk getting DQ'd.

It boils down to history I suspect. All IR50 rules are there for a reason. ARA is much less stringent on some things and the rule book has not evolved in an attempt to solve perceived issues. I was not there so cannot go further than my perception. FWIW bob
 
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bob finger said:
Hozzie: You talk about changing scoring, but you don't give specifics. What do you think needs changing, please? Bigger/smaller plug? 275 scoring? The process ie protests? I'm at a loss to understand your position. Thanks. bob ps for the record I stopped shooting 3 gun some years ago. I got tired of feeding multiple rifles and multiple rest types. I want to see 3 gun succeed and grow, but I'll stick to UL.
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Hi Bob,

For me personally, I actually don't care if it changes or not. If I decide to attend a match, so long as everyone is playing by the same rules, I am ok with it. However, I think I am in the minority. Now, would it be nice to have a few changes, sure, but I can only speak about this from an outsider perspective at this point. I have only shot IR5050 Unlimited once at the Triple Crown this year.

For me personally, I don't have an IR5050 club within less than 3 hours (Chickenfoot) and I don't think Slick has started yet. Kettlefoot is 4.5 hours. I do shoot ARA and will travel to matches within that range, but it is also my primary organization.

To Gordon's question about what will it take to get ARA shooters to shoot IR5050, the biggest complaint I here is that you miss one point and you are essentially out of it. I realize that is the game, but I think if there was a way to gain a point so you think you still have a chance it may help. I personally like the idea of allowing up to 1 extra point per card for any X count greater than 20 (or whatever number makes sense). You still could not score more than 750, but it could bring you back with a killer card or two. I don't like 275 as it changes it a bit too much and puts an over emphasis on X's.

I like the idea of shooting Sporter as I like the challenge, but for me to do that, I need to be closer or have a reason to get to an IR5050 match. For me the best chance of that is to have an ARA match at the same location on the same weekend. It may be a pipe dream to think we can get that type of cooperation, but I suspect at places like Kettlefoot and Chickenfoot, it would be quite easy to setup. If my range was more conducive to holding Rimfire matches, I may consider running one, but at this point I am not even sure I will continue my ARA matches next year. Not because of attendance, but because of a lack of importance to the range itself where they are not really interested in doing anything to help me make it better. I can easily go shoot that day instead of running a match.

For both ARA and IR5050 longevity, I think a true factory class is needed. I have sent my detailed view on this to Dan, but it would probably work for IR5050 as well. At it's basics it is true factory rifles only in that class. The only work that can be done is a trigger job on the factory trigger. No aftermarket barrels, etc. The idea is to get the guys that want to shoot a CZ for sporter and Anschutz 64 for BR in at a decent price. I also had an ammo cost limit of $10. No special scoring, no special anything, it's simply a designation as a factory shooter.

I can't speak to the IR5050 protest rules, but it seems like it would be annoying to me. That could be a turnoff.

Jamie

Additional:

(Bob): To me it boils down to where you live, how much driving you can tolerate and what you shoot at home.

This goes exactly to my point. If I am going to drive and can take advantage of a match where I already am, great. If not, I probably won't make a special trip as everything is so far.
 
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tim said:
I guess what I'm saying, Mike, while it is always nice to see growth of a new shooting discipline, is it in fact growing because of issues with the other score shooting platforms ? ......I suspect not.
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I suspect you have zero experience with UBR but I'll ask anyway..To what do you attribute its growth?
I'm not saying that the growth has anything to do with any other organization. To the contrary, they are doing things that I think other orgs should consider doing or stop griping. Sorry if you read anything in my post as faulting any other org. It's up to them what they do and how they do it.
UBR is growing because, in part, they are doing things differently. If that's the fault of other orgs or to the credit of UBR is not for me to determine.
 
Hozzie said:
Hi Bob,
the biggest complaint I here is that you miss one point and you are essentially out of it.
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I hear this so often and I need to respond to it here since this thread seems to have evolved into an ir5050 "soul-search". Some IR5050 events are indeed won with a 750. Most are not. Many are won with shooters dropping 1, 2, or even 3 shots. A great challenge shooting ir5050 targets is keeping your wits about you when you have lost a shot. Who knows how anyone else is doing?

As far as Yards & Meters events there has only ever been 1 1500 shot. Look at 6 card events and the winner has usually dropped 3-6 points.


Dropping a point can be unnerving and disappointing but it absolutely doesn't mean that you are "out of it".
 
I agree

Fred J said:
Eliminate deep pockets from protesting everyone else's target. That's why I don't shoot IR50?50
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I submitted this last year to the annual meeting and it apparently was not well received. I have seen too much of people trying to play head games with others for this practice to continue. One solution for playing head games is to simply shoot better one's self. When targets are protested the way they are in IR 50/50, one is saying the folks scoring are inept, to be kind. I personally have never looked at other's targets with the idea of protesting their scores, nor will I ever.

We would all be a lot better off if we could only protest our own targets. If a person can't win by shooting better they simply need to look in the mirror.


I shot IBS Score for a long time and protests became a problem. The process was chaged to a $10. fee and only for one's own target. Protests stopped quite quickly.
Pete
 
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As Bruce said. Would a true competer worry about a lost shot.Shoot the best you can on each target. Big nationals have been won many times by a shooter from behind. The same goes for protests. What in hell has deep pockets got to do with anything? A friggin computer shooter will never fix the lack of shooters at a match.
Most Clubs have a Monthly meeting and those that attend said meeting hear a report on rimfire. Where all those club members? Most of the posters on this thread have been to a 50/50 match. So far it is a joke not one solid solution to a problem that may not exist.
 
Pete Wass said:
I submitted this last year to the annual meeting and it apparently was not well received. I have seen too much of people trying to play head games with others for this practice to continue. One solution for playing head games is to simply shoot better one's self. When targets are protested the way they are in IR 50/50, one is saying the folks scoring are inept, to be kind. I personally have never looked at other's targets with the idea of protesting their scores, nor will I ever.

We would all be a lot better off if we could only protest our own targets. If a person can't win by shooting better they simply need to look in the mirror.


I shot IBS Score for a long time and protests became a problem. The process was chaged to a $10. fee and only for one's own target. Protests stopped quite quickly.
Pete
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English, Pete, spit it out in English. What "head games" take place ?
 
scores

25 diagrams each with a maximum points score of 10 points achieves a score of 250.
My opinion is that a score of 249 no matter how nice it looks cannot beat a 250.
If you were playing a game of poker and you tried to claim a full house with 3 kings and queen and a jack cos it looks prettier to you think the rest of the players would give you the pot:cool:o John F..
 
Two big reasons why you will never get the numbers back up for shooting the rimfire games....... Is aging and it's affects, and buying ammo. It is one thing to buy ammo, but to find the really good stuff is a never ending (costly) endeavor. Too many shooters can't afford to do it. Changing the way the targets are scored will not make the aging affects , or the endless ammo hunt any better. Our game is dying. Just look at the average age of the shooters, and how many quit because of health reasons or died in the last few years. Scoring is not going to solve the problem of aging and the cost to stay in the game. DJB
 
wicklowman said:
25 diagrams each with a maximum points score of 10 points achieves a score of 250.
My opinion is that a score of 249 no matter how nice it looks cannot beat a 250.
If you were playing a game of poker and you tried to claim a full house with 3 kings and queen and a jack cos it looks prettier to you think the rest of the players would give you the pot:cool:o John F..
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Faulty logic.

The target is made up of 25 bulls, and as you say, 10 points possible each. If we were shooting 25 matches on each target your logic would be sound, 25 --10s beats 24-- 10s. But we score all 25 bulls collectively. The shooter that places all 25 shots closest to the target(s) center has shot the best.

The X represents the target center. There is a lot of distance between the outer edge of the 10 ring, and the target center.

Hence 249 22X is a much better performance than a 250 8X.

As previously mentioned this gaming of the target is preferred by many shooters. It kinda gives everyone a better chance.

In the grand scheme of things that may be more important than who is the best shooter, has the best equipment, has found the best ammo. etc. etc.

All food for thought.

TKH
 
tonykharper said:
Faulty logic.

The target is made up of 25 bulls, and as you say, 10 points possible each. If we were shooting 25 matches on each target your logic would be sound, 25 --10s beats 24-- 10s. But we score all 25 bulls collectively. The shooter that places all 25 shots closest to the target(s) center has shot the best.

The X represents the target center. There is a lot of distance between the outer edge of the 10 ring, and the target center.

Hence 249 22X is a much better performance than a 250 8X.

As previously mentioned this gaming of the target is preferred by many shooters. It kinda gives everyone a better chance.

In the grand scheme of things that may be more important than who is the best shooter, has the best equipment, has found the best ammo. etc. etc.

All food for thought.

TKH
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As you say Tony,the shooter that is closest to the centre is the man,25 hits on the centre equeals 250 no matter how you adds it up.
We have a comp here int the UK for 10 spot cards that will give you a score of 100 plusX's,so hitting the x dead centre adds one tenth of a point to your score,so if a shooter hits all ten diagrams dead centre he will gain one point giving the shooter a score of 101.Over a 20 card shoot it is possible to drop more than one shot and still win withe the x add up system.I have seen some have suggested a like system ,but deciding how to the xadd up system for 25 spot card would be take a bit of working out.
You could cut the25 shot cards to 20 shot and award an extra point per 10 X's .John F.
 
Personally, I like the current scoring process and feel that it gives a more even playing field, or I should say a chance of winning at least a target to more participates.

How many sporting events do you notice that the dominating team or individual doesn’t win due to some issue. You want to win then you deal with all the elements of the game involved including what can go wrong.

I’d have to go back and look through the scores for the last 2 years that we’ve been shooting IR50/05 unlimited at our club, but from memory I do believe that it would favor one shooter.

Now with that said I believe the bad bullet call is just that a call and if we have so many of them it really does even out. I know the person with the 22x’s isn’t going to miss a condition and get a 9 has to be a bad bullet. For the record, I don’t buy into the failed bullet scenario as much as I hear it on the line match after match.

So who really is more accurate, or should I say is reading the overall conditions better.

745 50x’s = 795
750 44x’s = 794

Les
 
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tonykharper said:
Faulty logic.

The target is made up of 25 bulls, and as you say, 10 points possible each. If we were shooting 25 matches on each target your logic would be sound, 25 --10s beats 24-- 10s. But we score all 25 bulls collectively. The shooter that places all 25 shots closest to the target(s) center has shot the best.

The X represents the target center. There is a lot of distance between the outer edge of the 10 ring, and the target center.

Hence 249 22X is a much better performance than a 250 8X.

As previously mentioned this gaming of the target is preferred by many shooters. It kinda gives everyone a better chance.

In the grand scheme of things that may be more important than who is the best shooter, has the best equipment, has found the best ammo. etc. etc.

All food for thought.

TKH
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Tony,
This is starting to sound a lot less like a quest for opinion and a lot more about a rationalization that you and Bill ave decided long ago.
Exactly what "gaming" is supposed to be going on because for the life of me, I'd love to be able to learn how to "game" more 250's with moderate X counts.
It strikes some as a rationalization to somehow correct a percieved injustice.....just don't see it.
Unfortunately what I do see is a lot of crowing on another site about how "we" are gonna change rimfire.
I don't mean to throw stones here but that sounds a little disingenuous.
 
Words matter

tonykharper said:
Faulty logic.

As previously mentioned this gaming of the target is preferred by many shooters. It kinda gives everyone a better chance.

TKH
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GAMING definition- to manipulate to one's advantage, especially by trickery; attempt to take advantage of:


Tony, I've mostly stayed out of this discussion about this supposed "true accuracy" idea but I have to weigh in.

IR5050 is a game of consistency. That is what is has always been. I don't know of any "gaming" going on. You're suggesting that shooters have won and haven't deserved it is disingenuous and doesn't advance anything. To suggest that they've done it through trickery is beneath you.

The idea that you and the WLM keep pounding on is only viable and worth considering if shooters are actually awarded each point BY INCREMENTS from the target center, like Olympics scoring (9.1, 9.2, 9.3, etc). For a variety of reasons that will never happen. Your idea of "true accuracy" is that a line-licker X is just as "true" as a pinwheel and that's flawed logic.

Instituting a scoring system that "games" the results so a lowly 250 10X doesn't beat your 249 22X won't bring in any new shooters. Crusades designed to advance a personal agenda rarely achieve a greater good.
 
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