.22 PPC vs. .22 PPC USA vs. .22 PPC Sako

S

South_Pender

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Hi all. Complete newby here with a trivial (to you guys!) question. I have a Wichita Classic rifle chambered for the .22 PPC. I haven't shot it in years and recently noticed that this cartridge seems to have several names--.22 PPC, .22 PPC USA, and .22 PPC Sako. Can someone spell out the difference for me? Are the dimensions, or case capacities, different from one another.

Many thanks in advance.
 
Does it have a gunsmiths name on it? You may try contacting him. The bad thing about the 22ppc was there was almost no 22 ppc rifles made. They were all modified versions the best being the .100 short version or close to that. Nobody would have chambered it in ppc usa or sako unless it was a factory sako rifle. Long story short you got 2 options- have it rechambered into a known usable caliber (best option) or have a chamber cast made and measure it and see if it fits any known sizes of the millions of versions people used back them to try to get a 22ppc to be competitive. Id rechamber it if it were mine to be 100% sure
 
Btw i think i ran around your question real bad there. The usa and sako were saami chamberings and the ppc proper was a wildcat offering. I think thats all you asked. :rolleyes:
 
Dusty Stevens said:
Btw i think i ran around your question real bad there. The usa and sako were saami chamberings and the ppc proper was a wildcat offering. I think thats all you asked. :rolleyes:
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Thanks, Dusty. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, the case dimensions and capacities are identical across the three versions? The gun was built by Wichita Arms in 1997 (or a little earlier; I purchased it in 1997). The barrel was stamped just .22 PPC. I've attached a couple of pictures. You can barely make out the scroll .22 PPC on the barrel further out than the Wichita Arms scroll (close to the objective end of the scope). I'd like to get back to handloading for it, but want to make sure I get the right brass. It sounds as though the PPC proper, wildcat version, was likely all that was available in 1997. Will the cases stamped .22 PPC USA be identical to those stamped .22 PPC Sako, and will each of these be right for this gun?



 
I have one of the Sakos in a 22ppc USA and another in a 6ppc USA. Sako obtained the rights to produce the then wildcat 22ppc and the 6ppc as a saami offerings. To distinguish the factory version the cartridge was called 22ppc USA and 6ppc USA, hence the connection with USA and Sako. The factory version is not a tight neck configuration thus no neck turning needed. The Sako brass is softer than Lapua and doesn't hold up to the pressures benchresters use while competing but otherwise is great brass. I believe Norma also put out some USA brass also which was quite good. I have used both. Loading manuals that I have provide the specs for the saami version.

As your barrel does not specify USA after the ppc, most would suspect that it is not a factory original barrel, and thus the chamber is unknown. Most smiths will label the neck diameter on the barrel on the opposite side of the caliber. You didn't mention anything else stamped on the barrel so I assume it has no other nomenclature. That is why Dusty suggested a chamber cast. When a chamber is not factory there are too many variables such as tight necked, etc. that needs to be considered prior to loading for it. Good luck, Randy J.
 
Since you didn't mention having dies, I'd have a reputable gunsmith, like Dusty, chop off about an inch at the chamber end, chase the threads, and re-chamber it in a chambering that you know will work and I'd have the dies done at the same time. Then you would know what you have and that it will work.
.220Russian, .220Beggs, .22ppc, and .22ppc-0.100 all work well.

I just thought of something. First I'd scope it to see if the barrel is worth all that.
 
Thanks a lot, guys. I do know the chamber neck diameter: .2465", and the chamber length is 1.523". It is a factory-original barrel from Wichita Arms. Is Norma brass available in .22 PPC or 220 Russian?
 
Uthink Uknow said:
Since you didn't mention having dies, I'd have a reputable gunsmith, like Dusty, chop off about an inch at the chamber end, chase the threads, and re-chamber it in a chambering that you know will work and I'd have the dies done at the same time. Then you would know what you have and that it will work.
.220Russian, .220Beggs, .22ppc, and .22ppc-0.100 all work well.

I just thought of something. First I'd scope it to see if the barrel is worth all that.
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???Chop up that beautiful original octagonal barrel??? Please don't do it!
 
Norma 22 ppc and also Nosler 22ppc

Checking the internet and Midway is showing Norma 22ppc USA. The Nosler site is stating that they are producing brass in 22 ppc USA also. You certainly can fireform Lapua 220 Russian also. Randy J.
 
Uthink Uknow said:
Just gotta shorten it a little bit Keith.
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That would be like defacing a work of art. Have you ever seen one of these rifles and the almost seamless fit of the octagon barrel to the octagon action? This is a collector rifle to be left in original condition, not cut up and tinkered with.

JMHO,
Keith
 
mks said:
That would be like defacing a work of art. Have you ever seen one of these rifles and the almost seamless fit of the octagon barrel to the octagon action? This is a collector rifle to be left in original condition, not cut up and tinkered with.

JMHO,
Keith
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Yeah, not to worry. No chopping will occur!:D
 
Personally I never considered the 22PC a particularly rare caliber, I myself have owned two. one was a very fine custom Rem 40X smithed by Dan Dowling. The other I put together myself and used as a ground hog rifle for years, it pushed the 40 grain ballistic tips somewhere around 4000 fps.
Personally I would not think of butchering up a nice rifle like you have to rechamber it to something different, all you need to do is make some new cases. Making a chamber cast and taking measurements would be the ideal way to proceed but you could just fireform a couple of cases and probably find out what you need to know. The original 22 and 6 PPC cartridges were made with Sako 220 Russian brass, it was all we had back then to work with. A few years later Sako decided to modify the case slightly to "improve" it. This brass which was generally acknowledged as being very inferior to earlier brass was about .001 inch larger at the web. It was called "PPC USA" brass. I have never heard the term 22 PPC USA Sako until this thread. I would suggest you try to form some new brass from Lapua 220 Russian or neck down some Norma 6 PPC which is already blown out to PPC body taper. The main thing to remember here is Brass fire formed in a PPC USA chamber will not go back in a plain PPC chamber. Trust me on this as it is a long story but I have a Stolle Bolt that has been back to Kelblys twice to have the handle reattached before I totally learned this point. The case overall length will vary from reamer to reamer as well so keep an eye on that. You seem to indicate you shot it years ago, do you have dies?
Dick
 
Dick Grosbier said:
Personally I never considered the 22PC a particularly rare caliber, I myself have owned two. one was a very fine custom Rem 40X smithed by Dan Dowling. The other I put together myself and used as a ground hog rifle for years, it pushed the 40 grain ballistic tips somewhere around 4000 fps.
Personally I would not think of butchering up a nice rifle like you have to rechamber it to something different, all you need to do is make some new cases. Making a chamber cast and taking measurements would be the ideal way to proceed but you could just fireform a couple of cases and probably find out what you need to know. The original 22 and 6 PPC cartridges were made with Sako 220 Russian brass, it was all we had back then to work with. A few years later Sako decided to modify the case slightly to "improve" it. This brass which was generally acknowledged as being very inferior to earlier brass was about .001 inch larger at the web. It was called "PPC USA" brass. I have never heard the term 22 PPC USA Sako until this thread. I would suggest you try to form some new brass from Lapua 220 Russian or neck down some Norma 6 PPC which is already blown out to PPC body taper. The main thing to remember here is Brass fire formed in a PPC USA chamber will not go back in a plain PPC chamber. Trust me on this as it is a long story but I have a Stolle Bolt that has been back to Kelblys twice to have the handle reattached before I totally learned this point. The case overall length will vary from reamer to reamer as well so keep an eye on that. You seem to indicate you shot it years ago, do you have dies?
Dick
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Yes, I have some Wilson dies. And I did shoot it more than a decade ago, but don't remember where the brass came from. So now I'm wondering whether I can just pick up some Norma 22 PPC USA brass and be OK with it.
 
South_Pender said:
Yes, I have some Wilson dies. And I did shoot it more than a decade ago, but don't remember where the brass came from. So now I'm wondering whether I can just pick up some Norma 22 PPC USA brass and be OK with it.
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I think odds are excellent that would work , you will probably have to neck turn.
 
Dick

Dick as you know better than I, the ppc's started as a wildcat cartridge but at some point, Sako got the rights to produce it as a factory offering. Thus they 'standardized' the dimensions. My understanding is that they had propitiatory rights until their patent ran out (10 years???). From that perspective, you could only get the factory offering (ppc USA) from Sako during that time period. The cartridges have been listed in reloading books for some time now and the offering could and maybe still can be had from other manufacturers. The ppc USA version being the saami version is a no-turn version as any other manufacturer's offerings is. The uncertainty comes from South_Pender indicating that this is a factory rifle with a factory barrel but the barrel only has the ppc engraving and not the ppc USA. Maybe the rifle was a custom build from that maker but as we know there are many versions of the Benchrest ppc's, generally tight necked. I certainly wouldn't put a loaded cartridge with an unturned neck into such a barrel to shoot until it's status was determined but I would try an unloaded, unprimed factory case with a seated bullet. Good luck and proceed cautiously. Also, if any of the information above is incorrect, please don't hesitate to correct it. The info is my understanding of the situation from my own experiences but is far from authoritarian and don't mean to imply such. Randy J.
 
Randy Jarvais said:
The uncertainty comes from South_Pender indicating that this is a factory rifle with a factory barrel but the barrel only has the ppc engraving and not the ppc USA.
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I think he is calling it a factory rifle but it is more like at least a semi custom. I am guessing Wichita sold complete rifles but I doubt they were anything like a big assembly line. I assume a reamer was used to chamber it and we do not know much about that reamer but I bet it was not a PPC USA reamer. If it was, no problem as long as you use it's fired cases only in this rifle.
 
If it's a Wichita Classic with the octagon barrel, why not call Wichita and ask about the chambering?
 
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