Column Projectiles

A

Andy Cross

Guest
An importer of Berger projectiles in Oz recently informed me that Berger are now producing some projectiles for BR shooting that were being called column projectiles. No specific weight was being adhered to but an empahsis on the optimum position of the core within the jacket was the main criteria. I have heard the likes of Tony Boyer and some others did well using them recently. Any other news members of the group have on these projectiles would be appreciated.
Andy.
 
Andy

Go to http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/group/2012/Union%20County/Nationals/GroupNationals.php and scroll to the bottom of the page, you will see the columns listed in Tony’s equipment in 2 of the 4 classes of the IBS Nationals.

In Australia 2 weeks back, one of our best shooters used them at a match without ever having shot them previously, and shot a teen agg the first time out.

The first delivery of column bullets to hit Australia sold out pretty much by the time it arrived in country. Go ahead and put in your order for the next batch before that gets sold out too.
 
My order failed

Fergus Bailey said:
Andy

Go to http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/group/2012/Union%20County/Nationals/GroupNationals.php and scroll to the bottom of the page, you will see the columns listed in Tony’s equipment in 2 of the 4 classes of the IBS Nationals.

In Australia 2 weeks back, one of our best shooters used them at a match without ever having shot them previously, and shot a teen agg the first time out.

The first delivery of column bullets to hit Australia sold out pretty much by the time it arrived in country. Go ahead and put in your order for the next batch before that gets sold out too.
Click to expand...

I put up my hand with an importer of Bergers and said I would like to try a thousand. Let me know when you have them. Do you require a deposit. Answer no but they didn't tell me my order was in either. Evidently someone who orders only a small number to see if any of the barrels like them isn't taken seriously. So until I see them on the shelves I guess getting hold of some may be difficult.
Andy.
 
ReedG said:
Wow, all this venom, venting and misspelled statements over the word projectile. The Berger Column bullets do shoot very well, Andy. In my opinion there are not super magical all go in one hole, but very high quality, the equal of any of the several custom brands I've shot and pretty much readily available here in the U.S. I'm sure they'll get caught up with supply in Oz soon. The first few hundred thousand always go to the mega-thousand buyers.
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Thanks Mike,
Sounds like they might be worth trying out. I am sure they will be priced better than the customs without the wait when stocks become available.
Andy.
 
Sometimes, when writing a post, I think that it is a useful exercise to think about whether one would choose the same words if he were standing face to face with the person being addressed, in a room full of people, on which one wished to make a good impression. From time to time, hopefully not very often, I have written posts that did not meet that standard. Thankfully, most of the time, I paused, and did not post them, but there have been exceptions. I think that the goal of civil discourse is a good one.
 
Maybe this is a good opportunity, Boyd. The only thing I find wrong with your posts is the paragraphing. Somehow, internet posts get awfully dense, and that blank line helps give some time to let things sink in, even if it's strictly the same thought. For internet posts, I use paragraphing far different than for to-be-published print work.

I find I often have to read your posts two, three times -- which is not a bad thing, but is more work. Or maybe it is just an aging mind...
 
ok back to square one.
no the berger bullet company has no projectile refered to as the "column projectiles"
the offical name of this bullet, from the berger bullet company site is :
"BR Column Target"

thanks for asking your question.
i hope this straightened you out on the subject.
mike in co

Andy Cross said:
An importer of Berger projectiles in Oz recently informed me that Berger are now producing some projectiles for BR shooting that were being called column projectiles. No specific weight was being adhered to but an empahsis on the optimum position of the core within the jacket was the main criteria. I have heard the likes of Tony Boyer and some others did well using them recently. Any other news members of the group have on these projectiles would be appreciated.
Andy.
Click to expand...
 
So Far

So far from the information I have gathered from this site and elsewhere the Berger columns are worth looking at. I'll just have to be patient in obtaining some. If they shoot then the custom swagers may have some work taken from them.
Andy.
 
Andy, as a bullet maker I know my dies produce excellent bullets when the top of the core ends up in a specific range (as measured from the top of the jacket after the core is seated). For the purpose of this explanation, we're obviously talking about identical jacket lengths with just the allowable mfg. tolerances in length (a few .001's at most). many of us refer to this area as the lead line...where the lead core stops.

To keep a specific 'exact' finished bullet weight means that as jacket weights vary in different production lots, the core weight needs to be adjusted to compensate. The core weight is changed by making the cores a different length (jacket weight + core weight = finished bullet weight).

Rather than chasing our tails tailoring core weights to jacket lots, many of us allow the finished bullet weight to 'drift' from jacket lot to lot as long as the top of the seated core ends up in that specific range.

This lead-line sweet spot (for lack of a better term :)) is specific to each set of dies and is probably a function of ogive shape and relative to the diameter. A good set of .30 cal. dies might have a wider sweet spot than a set of 6mm dies, for example....depending on the bullets ogive, etc.

For a big volume bullet maker, the advantages are numerous and obvious. And the shooter gets an excellent product that's proven to perform.

I guess a lot of us have been making column bullets for a long while........we just didn't call 'em that. ;) :cool:

Good shootin'. :) -Al

P.S. As to being taken to task for your terminology, those posts remind me of this quote:

"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright (1868-1959)
 
Al,

It is an interesting question. I wonder if the success of the lead line is more a matter of where it isn't rather than where it is. As far as pressure on the bullet goes (internal ballistics), a lot of funky things happen as the base merges into the point. That is a high pressure area on the bullet. Just look at where a bullet spews lead when it comes apart.

Don't know if you've ever talked to Randy about it, but he made some point-blank 6mms with the lead running up close to the point. This after the 187s on the 1.300 jackets shot so well. (Those 187s still hold both the NBRSA and Australian 10-shot group record for 1,000 yards.)

Anyway, those "heavy" 6mms on .825 jackets shot so well one of his short-range group-shooting customers ordered 10,000.

Why bother? It is probably of more interest to long-range shooters, but even point-blank shooters can use less drag, as long as there is no other sacrifice. Sometimes the difference between a 10 and an X is real small...

* * *

On a related note, I used a tip trimmer & re-point die on some 118 BIBs. Best I can tell, I didn't lose anything. The book said it was worth it for 200 yards, all we need now is a shooter capable of taking advantage of what the book says we should find.

(Lowering drag is of no value to a perfect rifleman, it only lets the less perfect of us get away with a slightly larger mistake. Getting the drag even between all bullets only matters at longer ranges. I never ran the numbers to see what a .010 difference in B.C. makes in terms of drop at 200 & 300 yards. Probably not worth it, but there is a formula in Vaughn's book, and I guess you could just run the numbers on the JBM site...)
 
Andy Cross said:
So far from the information I have gathered from this site and elsewhere the Berger columns are worth looking at. I'll just have to be patient in obtaining some. If they shoot then the custom swagers may have some work taken from them.
Andy.
Click to expand...

It could...


Post 61.... Nice post Al..!

Pointing-up requires balances... There MUST be enough lead at the radius of the ogive/point to hold the ogive shape without deformation during point-up... There HAS to be lead support...

So... There are two approaches.... For me at least...

One could seat the core with enough lead to >>JUST<< end the lead line inside the meplat and not squirt out the point... This will typically point a very stable bullet... IE, IF the jacket length / bullet weight are stable in the twist rate....

Or....

One could seat the core with a minimal support of the ogive/point... Where is this lead line?... One will have to experiment... There is a point where there is a "collapse" due to lack of support. Keep lenghtening the core above the radi of the bearing surface/ogive transition (Have plenty of core seat punches..! Lotta Lathe work..!!!) and test, test, test...
For me, this I do and Berger is too with their Column bullet... IMOP, this minimal lead line height helps to really create a stable bullet, kind of a minimally disturbed core due to IMOP the minimal buldge of lead on top of the core. Then.... The flutes/creases that form inside the point can NOT erratically disturb the buldge of lead flowing halfway up the point.... The creases of jacket that form inside the point is an uncontrolable situation, I just try to keep the lead as far below these creases or at least minimal contact.......... OR..... As stated above, push that lead through the creases up to the meplat.... But I'm not TOTALLY confident a pointed jacket with lead up to the Meplat is 100% filling the creases, bullet to bullet.....? So mostly I make a minimal height cored bullet... My Column bullet.

Stable bullets.... SIGNIFICANTLY helps ones rifles tune... Go to Sleep buwets..!

cale
 
Good thinking and good information

caroby said:
It could...


Post 61.... Nice post Al..!

Pointing-up requires balances... There MUST be enough lead at the radius of the ogive/point to hold the ogive shape without deformation during point-up... There HAS to be lead support...

So... There are two approaches.... For me at least...

One could seat the core with enough lead to >>JUST<< end the lead line inside the meplat and not squirt out the point... This will typically point a very stable bullet... IE, IF the jacket length / bullet weight are stable in the twist rate....

Or....

One could seat the core with a minimal support of the ogive/point... Where is this lead line?... One will have to experiment... There is a point where there is a "collapse" due to lack of support. Keep lenghtening the core above the radi of the bearing surface/ogive transition (Have plenty of core seat punches..! Lotta Lathe work..!!!) and test, test, test...
For me, this I do and Berger is too with their Column bullet... IMOP, this minimal lead line height helps to really create a stable bullet, kind of a minimally disturbed core due to IMOP the minimal buldge of lead on top of the core. Then.... The flutes/creases that form inside the point can NOT erratically disturb the buldge of lead flowing halfway up the point.... The creases of jacket that form inside the point is an uncontrolable situation, I just try to keep the lead as far below these creases or at least minimal contact.......... OR..... As stated above, push that lead through the creases up to the meplat.... But I'm not TOTALLY confident a pointed jacket with lead up to the Meplat is 100% filling the creases, bullet to bullet.....? So mostly I make a minimal height cored bullet... My Column bullet.

Stable bullets.... SIGNIFICANTLY helps ones rifles tune... Go to Sleep buwets..!

cale
Click to expand...



This has been a most interesting thread. :eek: I think we are making progress in understanding why some bullets shoot very well and others, often made in the same die won't shoot in a basket. Most bullet makers have always believed this was due to the lot of jackets posessing some magic quality that could not be quantified but I have always been skeptical of that theory. Others have attributed the magic to the point up die. Again, I am skeptical. Don't get me wrong, I agree, the point up die is important but I wonder if perhaps some dies that never made good bullets before could be brought to life by simply optimizing the lead line. Optimum lead line and hence optimum center of gravity depends on the ogive shape. Center of aerodynamic pressure with a 6 ogive is much further forward than with an 8 ogive.

There may be others who have understood this for years and just kept it to themselves, but we can thank Eric Stecker and Brian Litz for introducing it to the benchrest community with the Berger Column bullet.

At one time, Brian Litz, Berger's chief ballistician, designed rockets for the US Air Force. You don't suppose he may have learned a thing or two there about ogives, center of gravity etc, and their effects on airborne projectiles? Nah,,, probably not, I think most of this stuff is just speculation, smoke and mirrors; huh? :confused: But maybe, just maybe,,,,,,hmmmmmmm:confused:

Last week we tested the Berger Column bullets in my tunnel with a new Jay Young rail gun. 6ppc, .269 neck, heavy neck tension, 51 clicks N133 on Harrel's measure, Fed 205 primer, average MV 3300 fps. To say "I was impressed" would be an understatement! We did not have a tuner installed on the barrel so tuning in the vertical axis was accomplished by varying the powder charge; horizontal tuning was accomplished with seating depth. I lucked out and hit the tune right on the money with the first setting and bullets went into one little ragged hole. After a trip to town for lunch outside temp had increased by about ten degrees and sure enough, the rifle showed one bullet hole of vertical due to the increase in density altitude. (Air thinned out, bullets were exiting early.) Reducing the powder charge by .3 grain (half a number on the Harrel's) brought the rifle right back in tune.

Further experimenting with seating depth proved once again my theories about that. With bullets seated on hard jam there were two bullet holes of horizontal; pushing the bullets back .010 off hard jam reduced horizontal dispersion to one bullet hole and pushing them back .020 off hard jam eliminated all horizontal. :)

Well guys, there it is; take it for what you think it's worth. Have fun!

Good shootin'

Gene Beggs
 
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Gene Beggs said:
This has been a most interesting thread. :eek: I think we are making progress in understanding why some bullets shoot very well and others, often made in the same die won't shoot in a basket.............. Optimum lead line and hence optimum center of gravity depends on the ogive shape. Center of aerodynamic pressure with a 6 ogive is much further forward than with an 8 ogive. Gene Beggs
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The late Jef Fowler believed this same thing.
 
Gene Beggs said:
Last week we tested the Berger Column bullets in my tunnel with a new Jay Young rail gun. 6ppc, .269 neck, heavy neck tension, 51 clicks N133 on Harrel's measure, Fed 205 primer, average MV 3300 fps.
Click to expand...

Hi Gene

Just out of interest, could you quantify the "heavy neck tension" that you used in this test?
 
Al Nyhus said:
Rather than chasing our tails tailoring core weights to jacket lots, many of us allow the finished bullet weight to 'drift' from jacket lot to lot as long as the top of the seated core ends up in that specific range.

This lead-line sweet spot (for lack of a better term :)) is specific to each set of dies and is probably a function of ogive shape and relative to the diameter. A good set of .30 cal. dies might have a wider sweet spot than a set of 6mm dies, for example....depending on the bullets ogive, etc.
Click to expand...

I may be misremembering, but I thought Eric Stecker said in an earlier post that whatever process defines a Column bullet could only be done on a flat base bullet, not a boat tail. If a Column is "just" about a consistent lead line, then wouldnt that be equally possible with a FB and BT? Or is there some additional complexity that is introduced with a boat tail core seating process?
 
point taken eddie

eww1350 said:
"i have nothing against andy, but he was not correct in his choice of words..plain and simple.
mike in co"

Mike..
You stated "it is a pet peeve of mine"...when some one uses an incorrect word in a statement on this forum...I am asking out of courtesy that you not correct someone in such a condesending manner...but let the people that reply determine if the word or words used are understandable to them..I doubt that anyone reading this thread did not understand the reference "projectile" as most people not from the USA use variations of english (proper or not)...
I was taught by my parents not to be dissrespectful by correcting people without them asking for your input...
Courtesy in all things makes us all better...
I don't question your qualifications or education just your manners...
I seriously hope you do not use your forum manners when dealing face to face with people...if you do...your list of friends is a very short one...

feel free to reply in any manner...

Eddie in Texas
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Fergus Bailey said:
Hi Gene

Just out of interest, could you quantify the "heavy neck tension" that you used in this test?
Click to expand...




In my opinion, the best way to quantify neck tension is by feel. The following is how I describe it and here I'm talking about using the good old reliable Wilson straight-line seater which I prefer over all the fancy micrometer adjustable models.


1. If you can seat bullets easily with only thumb pressure, that's "light."

2. If you must stand and use the heel of your hand, that's "medium."

3. If you must use your arbor press, that's "heavy."



Some shooters refer to neck tension as the amount of squeeze relative to loaded round diameter. For example if the loaded round mics .2600 and they resize with a .2570 neck bushing they refer to that as .003 neck tension. If you use this method I must caution you about something I learned the hard way and that is; the thicker neck walls used with .268 and .269 necks in the 6mm's do not require as much squeeze as the thin walls used with .261 and .262 necks.

For my 6mm rounds using Lapua brass, I have gone to all .269 necks, a .2660 carbide neck bushing, and turn neck wall thickness to .0120.

Hope this helps. :)

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs said:
In my opinion, the best way to quantify neck tension is by feel. The following is how I describe it and here I'm talking about using the good old reliable Wilson straight-line seater which I prefer over all the fancy micrometer adjustable models.


1. If you can seat bullets easily with only thumb pressure, that's "light."

2. If you must stand and use the heel of your hand, that's "medium."

3. If you must use your arbor press, that's "heavy."



Some shooters refer to neck tension as the amount of squeeze relative to loaded round diameter. For example if the loaded round mics .2600 and they resize with a .2570 neck bushing they refer to that as .003 neck tension. If you use this method I must caution you about something I learned the hard way and that is; the thicker neck walls used with .268 and .269 necks in the 6mm's do not require as much squeeze as the thin walls used with .261 and .262 necks.

For my 6mm rounds using Lapua brass, I have gone to all .269 necks, a .2660 carbide neck bushing, and turn neck wall thickness to .0120.

Hope this helps. :)

Gene Beggs
Click to expand...



Thanks Gene

I guess mine are all "heavy" then.
 
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