XBR @ the Cactus

goodgrouper

goodgrouper

tryingtobeabettergrouper
Fwiw,

Bruno brought a mighty big stack of the golden bottle stuff to sell at the Cactus. I know because I saw it. And I bought some more of it from him as did many other folks. By Friday at lunch time I think it was (could have been Thursday because time flies when you're having fun), he was sold out. I saw lots of guys hauling it off by the 8 pound jug but when it came time to compete, I only saw a few folks pouring into their hoppers. I guess most of them wanted to practice with it but didn't dare use it for the record just yet.

Well, I used it for the match as did Lou M. and Joe O. There were a handful of other guys but I didn't get their names. I managed to place in the top third despite a small but irritating equipment problem and Joe and Lou managed to finish in the top twenty. Joe and I practiced with it all day Thurdsay and Friday and found it to be every bit as accurate as N133 and in some instances, it was actually more accurate and yielded more rounded groups. This has been the case all winter as Joe and I have broken in four barrels with it and found good nodes with XBR in temps from 30 degrees on up.

So come game time, we had a little experience with it and decided to just run it during the match too.

Saturday brought temps in the mid 70's and sunshine with little wind. I ran the same load I thought was best from Friday and I didn't change it all day. Joe started out with a load that worked for him Friday but found that three clicks more gave even better results on Saturday. Sunday came and so did the rain. We were dry and cozy inside our box van but not 2 feet from us was a wall of water. The temp dipped down to 55 degrees so we upped our charge three clicks (.3 grain) and it was drilling bugholes. Yet, leaving it at the setting from Saturday would put the shots right into the upper charge's group at 200 yards!!! In other words, it was a very forgiving powder. And if the humidity of a wall of water two feet away from the powder thrower was doing anything, damned if I could see it.:eek: It acted just like it did a day earlier in typical Phoenix weather.;)

Maybe we just have great barrels on our guns (and I'm sure we do) but XBR seemed easier to tune than N133 would have been in those conditions. It wasn't perfect, but it was better. That was the comment I heard from the few other guys who were using it too. I overheard one fella say he hadn't changed his load at all since Friday afternoon and this was on Sunday after lunch!

Another thing Joe and I noticed was how it seemed to carbon foul the barrel a bit less than N133 even when it got chilly and everything felt wet. We cleaned both of our guns inbetween each target all day long for four days so we felt like we had a pretty good feel for it by then.

All in all, I like the gold bottle stuff. It is as good as N133 if not better. And it's cheaper too. You still have to know how to tune a gun with it, but it is a little more forgiving. At least, thus far................
 
If Gary's reading this and can find the time, it would be interesting just how many guys listed XBR in the powder column of their registration sheet. I know there are a few of us who took the plunge.......
 
goodgrouper said:
If Gary's reading this and can find the time, it would be interesting just how many guys listed XBR in the powder column of their registration sheet. I know there are a few of us who took the plunge.......
Click to expand...

YEP...

Several "8208" shooters I saw on the top 20 HV and LV equiptment list... All but Lou who shot "8208" did not state wether they shot the original Dupont IMR8208 version or the ADI "IMR" 8208XBR...

cale
 
caroby said:
YEP...

Several "8208" shooters I saw on the top 20 HV and LV equiptment list... All but Lou who shot "8208" did not state wether they shot the original Dupont IMR8208 version or the ADI "IMR" 8208XBR...

cale
Click to expand...

11 = N133 top 20 LV users

7 = 8208 "

12 = N133 top 20 HV users

6 = 8208 "
 
Winning...

"" That only comes with putting bullets downrange""
- Joe Krupa

This needs to be the title of Joe's new upcoming book!! Shhhhh!!

Now then Joe. how many of that group were shooting gain twist vs fixed? I know Bob Hammick had some 13.75 fixed twist Bartleins because I sold them to him.
 
Great Info!

Great post Joe...!

ALL TAKE NOTE............!


cale
 
Joe

Great Post.

I sold off all of my old 8208, I figure someone else could make better use of it. I am going with 133, and the XBR.

For the purposes of this Forum, we need as many reports on XBR as we can get. That is "the powder of the future" for the vast majority of shooters who wish to go to the line with something besides 133.

The one thing we still do not know is how XBR will shoot when the temperature gets into the 90+ degree range. the warmest we have shot it in so far is about 72 degrees. It seems many can make it shoot at 50 degrees and below, and some, (me included), can't. I amhoping that it is "just right" at the higher temps.

Gene called me Sat Night and told me what he had to do to get 133 to shoot out there, when he did, it obviously did pretty well. I don't feel comfortable repeating what he told me without his permission. But it was in keeping what we normally do with 133 when the bottom falls out of the humidity.

Many of us have completely re-vamped our programs for this year, new Rifles, new powders, new brand of barrels, different bullets, about the only thing I need now is a brain transplant, or maybe a lobotomy:D.........jackie
 
Joe Krupa said:
(I know that many out there believe that watching humidity is foolish, but shoot a few flat .20xx two-guns before you advance that theory.)

(Yes, the World Team guys watch temperature AND humidity.) .
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Joe,

Perhaps you could enlighten us non-team USA idiots who put half-hearted efforts into benchrest and only win two guns with .2300 aggs how humidity affects things? I'm not asking because I don't believe you or the "big names", I'm asking because I'd like to hear HOW it changes things so we know what to look for.

As I said, I didn't have to change my load from Saturday to Sunday very much and what I did change was based on 25 degree temperature drop. WIth a literal sheet of water falling two feet from my powder thrower and everthing from the cleaning rods to the brass feeling wet, I set up my Chargemaster and weighed what my Harrels was throwing in all that humidity to see if it was throwing different by weight than it was on Saturday. Well, it wasn't off a .1 grain. Perhaps this is just an XBR quality but I would doubt that.

Some other theories I have heard about humidity are water beading in the barrel which I don't buy because that would get blown out on the first shot and subsequent shots coming quick in 7 minutes.

Other theories are how it affects external ballistics but anyone can check this out with ballistic software and see quite quickly its affects there are nil.

SOme suspect that water vapor in the air in the loading area gets sealed into the powder column upon seating the bullet and changes interior ballistics and combustion. But anyone with a chronograph can load ammo in rainy conditions and then load the same load in dry conditions and then shoot them over the chrono and see the results. In my tests of this, there was no more velocity variation than what is normal parameters.

So please, please, please explain to this "under 100,000 round count" competitor what you are seeing and how you are determining humidity's causes and effects and how to deal with them. Don't just say "so and so does it so it must be correct". Tell us WHY they do it and WHAT they are looking for!
 
Joe

Joe, you probably know GoodGrouper by his given name, Jim. His last name starts with a B. If he wishes to tell you the rest, he will. He is not a novice to Benchrest.

You are just one of many that he has unloaded on because you dared mentioned the words, "humidity" and "tune" in the same paragraph. It seems to be his pet peeve.

Please do not let this deter you from sharing your knowledge with the readers of this Forum. We do try to encourage Posters that ideas and knowledge can be shared without resorting to rude behavior.

Once again, thanks for sharing.......jackie
 
To all the newer beginners in BR I would highly recommend taking notes when Joe is posting.
 
Joe,
You make some interesting points but I feel you are misunderstanding me a bit so I will elaborate on your points by a quote and reply response:




“.... I'm not sure who you are since I don't recognize your name (sounds like you made it up). But, it looks like you are a bit defensive about what you read and write. I have never referred to anyone as an idiot, even when I may have believed it. You are what you do.”

I speculate that there are many here on this forum who take offense to my moniker and there are many here offended by anyone who doesn’t use their real name. I simply choose to use a moniker for various security reasons. The moniker I’ve chosen was actually a nickname a fellow employee gave me years ago because no matter how good of a group I showed him, he still said it was just “good” and could be better. I recall showing him several low tenth inch groups I was proud of and he would always tell me how I could improve upon it even though he’d never shot a tenth inch group in his life. I thought this nickname would be a good one here and on other sites because it shows our meticulous nature to improve our shooting from “good” to “better”. If my moniker had come from arrogance, I would have called myself “bestgrouper” which obviously wouldn’t be true.

Secondly, I’m not defensive or argumentative by nature. But I think many here would agree that the way you came across in your post was such like those of us without HOF points or who have no Team USA experience know nothing and only our excrement has an odor. If that was not your intent, then I will not look at it that way.

”Come to a match sometime and we can have a dialogue face-to-face. It is easy to cast dispersions anonymously at a key board. I'll be at the Super Shoot, the East West. the Hog Roast, the NBRSA Nationals and all of the Eastern Region matches. Come up to me and ask me what my opinion is; we'll have a productive discussion in that venue.”


I would love to. Unfortunately, we might have to wait until next year at the Cactus as I don’t see being able to get back east this year for any of those matches. The Nationals are the only possibility for me right now but it’s still a “maybe” at this point.

”I am a competitor, not a theorist. In my world it is simply enough to know what is and what isn't, then move on with what is. Using more brain power to analyze beyond that is not productive in my world. (Thank Gawd for the guys who do, but I would rather leave that to someone who spends their efforts working the technical side of things for altruistic reasons like advancing the knowledge base of the sport.)”


I’m glad you can view the world that way and I wish I could too but my brain functions more along the lines of scientific proofs than on rumors or heresay. No offense to you or anyone else who thinks it’s good enough to just know somebody who does something on faith or personal beliefs, but that kind of evidence wouldn’t last a nanosecond in the scientific community. If an idea can’t be proven by prescribed scientific method, it can’t be taken as fact. To date, I’ve spent hours in the library and on the internet researching humidity and all it’s possible effects and have thus far found seriously lacking evidence to support the claims of bechresters who believe in it. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m simply saying I can’t find much data to support your views and they go against what I’ve found in my own personal and extensive testing.


”And the last time I looked, this is the Competitive Benchrest forum, isn't it? I don't know about you, but I want to hear from the competitors on this forum.”

I’m not sure what you mean by this statement. I too would like this sub-section to be used by competitors only. But I get the sense you don’t think I’m a competitor. Well, if that’s the case, look again. You can click on my user name and go to my homepage and get my email address that has my last name in it and go through the competitor list and find me easy enough. I assure you, I compete. And I work damn hard at it and have foregone many things in life to stay at it and have sacrificed much to learn it as best I can. Just because I haven’t got a red white and blue jacket (yet) doesn’t mean I don’t try very hard and haven’t learned a few things.


”Perhaps your remarks are the very reason why some of the guys who have spent a considerable amount of their own time, money and effort in this sport to advance the overall knowlegde base don't write here any more. (And at one time there were quite a few that did.) That is sad because this is a great way to disseminate information rather than listening in on conversations at a match (or whatever).
The biggest concern I have about what a lot of shooters write here on what they experience in a limited venue, then pass it on anonymously have no stake in the outcome of how that information affects those who read it. I would assist anyone at any match that comes up to me, and quite often do. But, I really never try and steer someone down a path that hasn't worked for not only me, but the majoority of the top-level shooters in this sport.”

Take a look at these two paragraphs from my point of view. If someone is claiming things that they can’t back up with scientific knowledge that is documented for the world to see, then WHO is spreading untruths or beliefs?? I have asked proponents of humidity theory numerous times to prove it here and THEY have been the ones who ran and hid. If they are the ones no longer posting because a few guys like myself are asking them questions, then it is for the better in my opinion. As they say in Missouri, show me!

”And regardless of how many shots someone has fired over there career, I would rather listen to someone who has put their efforts and walllets out there, and then honestly report on what has been observed.”


I believe that is what I did. I reported my experience from the weekend (without compensation from anyone) so others could see it.

”By the way, my guess is that most of the people who read this forum would rather shoot a flat .20XX two-gun than a .23XX. I know that I would. Mine was a couple of hundred thousandths behind Jack's at the Cactus. That aggregate was no small feat and he is to be congratulated.”

Oh so very true. But if you look at the winning aggs from around the country, you will see that what wins in Oklahoma or Springville, Utah is often a .3000 agg or higher. Then if you shoot anything less than a teen agg in Eric Stanton’s or Rick Graham’s neighborhood, you aren’t going to be anywhere near the top ten. Heck, looking over the winning two gun aggs from the modern era at the Cactus that was published in the booklet that Gary handed out, there is a winning 2 gun agg from the low .2’s all the way up to near .3’s and everything inbetween. So it is all relative to what the conditions are.
But I do agree that Jack should be congratulated in any case for his .20xx agg as that was some very remarkable shooting indeed.
 
jackie schmidt said:
Joe, you probably know GoodGrouper by his given name, Jim. His last name starts with a B. If he wishes to tell you the rest, he will. He is not a novice to Benchrest.

You are just one of many that he has unloaded on because you dared mentioned the words, "humidity" and "tune" in the same paragraph. It seems to be his pet peeve.

Please do not let this deter you from sharing your knowledge with the readers of this Forum. We do try to encourage Posters that ideas and knowledge can be shared without resorting to rude behavior.

Once again, thanks for sharing.......jackie
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Thank you Jackie.
I hope I didn't come off as "unloading" on anyone as you put it. I'm simply trying to get to the bottom of this and I'm having a rough time because the humidity proponents keep dodging the direct questions I'm asking. Humidity is not my pet peeve. My pet peeve is the spreading of beliefs as facts and then running away when asked to show some evidence.:) As I have stated numerous times, I'm not saying anyone is wrong or anyone is right. I'm simply trying to get evidence from both sides.
 
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Btw,

I have been in contact with Gary O this morning and he told me that there were 11 people who listed XBR as their powder for the match with both guns and 2 others who had it listed for just one gun. Thanks again for the info Gary.
 
Goodgrouper

In was hoping there would be a lot more than that, considering the size of the match.

I guess shooters are just not comfortable enough with it yet.

I hope we get some temperatures close to 80 this week end. I am bound and determined I am going to make this stuff work.

I got a call from Gary Walters about an hour ago, he is at Tomball right now, and it is 82 degrees. He has his Rail Gun on the Bench. Maybe he will get some good warmer weather data for us ...........jackie
 
great discussion. keep it coming

Joe Krupa said:
PS I never show anyone I work with a target. They either start looking at me with great suspicion, or ask me why I missed the middle of the target.
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Ain't that the truth! Joe and I were commenting on that on the way home. We could show our local rifle and pistol club boys a couple of our "ones" we shot and they would say that's great but you missed the bullseye!:eek::D


In all seriousness though, this is turning out to be a productive conversation and you seem like a very decent guy. I apologize for misunderstanding your intent. Chalk it up to the problems with written words I guess. Your explanation was very insightful and enlightening. If you don't mind Joe, could you tell us more about what you think on this topic?

If I understood you correctly, you believe the humidity factor comes into play with the H2O atoms "clinging" to the kernels of powder and therefore causing volume thrown charges to be affected? I have identified four "trains of thought" associated with humidity theory: internal combustion, external ballistics, physical loading properties, and barrel stasis. I would put your explanation in the "physical loading properties" category. Assuming this is correct, what would you say to the guys who think humidity is messing around with their tune but who do all their loading by weight on the spot with a Chargemaster? And for those who are the same but pre-load and use tuners?

Also, do you believe that the guys in my other three categories are incorrect? Would you say that humidity effects only come through moisture cling and the guys who swear it affects internal combustion are wrong? Is it a combination of things or is it a result of only one? There are some guys from Texas who believe it only affects the carbon inside the barrel in small proportions and don't believe it is a result of anything else. In other words, they don't believe the moisture droplets cling to powder nor do they believe that it affects combustion. What do you think?

I, for one, have personally ruled out external ballistics, and barrel status as the culprits. I am thinking if humidity does affect anything, it would be more likely to be in the combustion or physical loading categories although, like I said earlier, not my scale nor my chronograph has given me evidence enough to support humidity theory there either as of yet. But I am keeping an open mind. I've certainly seen much stranger things in the gun world come true!;)
 
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jackie schmidt said:
I hope we get some temperatures close to 80 this week end. I am bound and determined I am going to make this stuff work.

I got a call from Gary Walters about an hour ago, he is at Tomball right now, and it is 82 degrees. He has his Rail Gun on the Bench. Maybe he will get some good warmer weather data for us ...........jackie
Click to expand...


Please let us know what you find out! Some of us up north here are dying to know if we just bought 16 pounds of tulip fertilizer! It won't be 80 degrees here in Utah for at least another 3 to 4 months!
 
Joe krupa

carolyn told me she is tired of trying to teach me how to shoot and that at the next shoot you and i are at, i should consider a face to face intervention on how this sport is done. She told me she is willing to give up 5 green stamp books and one hungry man chicken dinner for payment of your time.

Thanks in advance

tom;)
 
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