Winchester Primers - fail to fire

R

Roy Allain

Guest
I just started to have a number of FTF Winchester primers, all from the same lot, about 10.

These are Winchester Large Rifle primers which I use on my 6.5x47. The brass is case formed 308 Win brass using Butch Lambert's case forming dies. I have never had any problems in over 3000 rounds fired in 3 different calibers.

This is new brass which I fire formed.
I've never, ever had this many ftf in all my many years of reloading & shooting - 55 yrs & counting.

I took the bolt apart last Saturday, inspected, cleaned etc. Functioned correctly & nothing broken.
Had 4 more ftf this morning. Very frustrating.

All primers seated exactly as I have always done. Each round fired correctly and went into the group after re-cocking and pulling the trigger a 2nd time. I round had to be re-cocked & fired a 3rd time.

The bolt & firing are custom PTG one piece bolts and firing pin assemblies. I am planning on calling Dave Kiff next Monday to run this past him to see if I should look somewhere else or do some other testing or send the bolt assy. to him for testing.

A possibility I have considered, but have no way of testing & proving, is harder than usual primer brass and/or anvils.

Or perhaps moisture or oil in the primer mixture. I have pretty much eliminated this as I am very meticulous in the storage & handling of my primers. Keep cool & no movement except when loading.

Any suggestions? Did I miss anything?

Many thanks.

Roy

P.S.: I am going to check the spring tension this weekend if I have the time. 24 lbs. - right?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Do you ask this because the rifle fired these primers with one lick before - or are you asking because the primers are new?
 
Win.Primers

at our last big bore match my buddy had a primer leak..... after careful inspec. of hsi fired cases he had had several leaks...and it cut his boltface....another shooter claimed he had the same problem....contacted win....they made it rite with him....
 
I have used nothing but WSR primers for the past 10 years maybe, never had a failure. I can't say the same for Federals.
 
I'm gonna guess that since they DID fire, maybe they weren't seated into the primer pockets completely (bottomed out and then 0.002 more for crush). Your first firing pushed them in deeper and they fired on the second firing, or third for that one. I just discovered in my 6BR that I wasn't actually feeling the primer cup hit bottom; I was 2-thou (1 click on my 21st Century priming tool) off, but all fired like "normal" - my guess is that there was some inconsistency tho. Now I actually feel the cup bottom out, then I squeeze a bit more. You might try squeezing a bit more; maybe the new brass has slightly deeper pockets.

Dennis
 
Primer or Headspace?

When 308 brass is die-formed to 6.5 there should be a slight crush feel when the bolt is closed on this UNPRIMED formed brass. This brass fit indicates zero headspace. It can then be primed,filled with powder and bullet to be fire-formed. It is possible that the brass could be over-formed in the forming die with the result of excessive headspace that prevents the firing pin from properly indenting the primer.

I hope this helps you,
Ted
 
zippy06 said:
lee I did an experiment with oil and primer. Old wives tale. They still fired.
Put some water on them. Let them dry. Still fire.
Click to expand...

Lee, I am going to second zippy's post. Part of my practice routine has been for years to load 5 rounds with completely dead primers out of each 100 loaded. A few years ago I was able to buy a 1,000 empty primer cups from Winchester. After I had used all of these up, now they will not sell me empty cups. So I went about killing some primers. I have tried every concoction I could think of straight WD40 soaked primers for a week that didn't work so I soaked them for a month they are after that month just as good as new. I have tried soaking some as long as 6 weeks in Alcohol and WD40, Mobile 1 synthetic oil and Alcohol, lard, greese (several kinds), hydraulic oil, Kroil, PB Blaster, Nut Buster penetrating oil, anti freeze, and several others as well. All of these treatments and the primers still go bang. The only thing I have found to render them isnert is to remove the anvil.

For me the old story that WD40 ruins primers is just as zippy said and old wives tale.

Roland
 
I guess ill go ahead- why load 5 out of 100 with inert primers? You just wanna see if you can find them at the most inopportune time? Ive seen folks load 1 dummy round that maybe has that days seating depth but its usually primerless so it can be identified
 
Dusty Stevens said:
I guess ill go ahead- why load 5 out of 100 with inert primers? You just wanna see if you can find them at the most inopportune time? Ive seen folks load 1 dummy round that maybe has that days seating depth but its usually primerless so it can be identified
Click to expand...

The whole idea is to "not" to be able to Identify them. This is a practice routine first used by Harry Pope the famous Barrel Maker and one of the very best 75 ring Schuetzen shooters. Later it was adapted by a very few prone Silhouette Shooters as a means of maintaining proper Follow Through after the shot. I have found it to be a great technique for shooting off of the bench or from a rest such as in F-Class.

Roland
 
B.Larson said:
at our last big bore match my buddy had a primer leak..... after careful inspec. of hsi fired cases he had had several leaks...and it cut his boltface....another shooter claimed he had the same problem....contacted win....they made it rite with him....
Click to expand...

#1, this has zero correlation with FTF and #2, primer leaks are the reloader's fault NOT Winchester's!!

Primers leak because they've been fired too hot.

period.

This is just silly, both the connection and the implication.

al
 
Hombre0321 said:
Lee, I am going to second zippy's post. Part of my practice routine has been for years to load 5 rounds with completely dead primers out of each 100 loaded. A few years ago I was able to buy a 1,000 empty primer cups from Winchester. After I had used all of these up, now they will not sell me empty cups. So I went about killing some primers. I have tried every concoction I could think of straight WD40 soaked primers for a week that didn't work so I soaked them for a month they are after that month just as good as new. I have tried soaking some as long as 6 weeks in Alcohol and WD40, Mobile 1 synthetic oil and Alcohol, lard, greese (several kinds), hydraulic oil, Kroil, PB Blaster, Nut Buster penetrating oil, anti freeze, and several others as well. All of these treatments and the primers still go bang. The only thing I have found to render them isnert is to remove the anvil.

For me the old story that WD40 ruins primers is just as zippy said and old wives tale.

Roland
Click to expand...

Roland,

having tried nearly all of the above I've had limited success with acetone

al
 
So what's the lot#?

sbindy said:
So what's the Lot #?
Click to expand...

DBL613G

I've been using Winchester primers for years and this is the first time I ever had this problem.

Like anything else, I've had the occasional ftf, about 1 in 5000, but this is very unusual.
 
Wilbur said:
Do you ask this because the rifle fired these primers with one lick before - or are you asking because the primers are new?
Click to expand...

The primers have always fired. I never had this problem before.

BTW, Wilbur. Do you still use Penefite in your rifles?
 
DeltaBravo said:
I'm gonna guess that since they DID fire, maybe they weren't seated into the primer pockets completely (bottomed out and then 0.002 more for crush). Your first firing pushed them in deeper and they fired on the second firing, or third for that one. I just discovered in my 6BR that I wasn't actually feeling the primer cup hit bottom; I was 2-thou (1 click on my 21st Century priming tool) off, but all fired like "normal" - my guess is that there was some inconsistency tho. Now I actually feel the cup bottom out, then I squeeze a bit more. You might try squeezing a bit more; maybe the new brass has slightly deeper pockets. Dennis
Click to expand...

Dennis, I'm sorta leaning this way. That would explain it. The bolt, firing pin & spring, etc. are ok. I remember when I inserted the primers, some were WAY TO HARD TO INSERT INTO THE POCKETS. They may not have bottomed out. They were so hard that I could not feel the primers properly.

Thanks. I'm glad you mentioned that.
 
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