Wilbur deleted long range thread... My thoughts on the matter.

J

JMC

Guest
Wilbur,

I see the thread titled” Westcoast Longrange Shooters We Need Your Input” has been deleted and one can no longer post or read the thread. It is understandable that the post was getting personal and having personal attacks on others and this was bound to happen.

When an organization has an elected official that goes unchecked and manipulates matches to be in his favor is this not a personal attack on all the members of said organization? Then in doing so his actions brings out the worst in everyone especially those in attendance at the matches?

I happened to be at the match and saw what had transpired first hand and looked back at a years worth of hard work, huge time investment, and a large cash outlay when the match was stopped, because of an individual who had no right to intervene, take a vote, stop the match with no official outcome that I should be happy with said such outcome. I was in fourth overall and wanted to finish the match as per the rule book and the outcome could have been better or I could have slipped way down there are no guarantees either way but at least I would have had the opportunity at a National event to shoot against everyone at the match in a head to head competition and see where I would have finished after the 3 day match. I was never allowed to have that opportunity.

Then there is the crew that ran the matches in Sacramento and it is in tatters and will need to be rebuilt. The target and pit crew vocally disagreed about the vote and it fell upon deaf ears and they may not be back in the future which is a shame they were probably the best crew one could have and played strictly by the rule book, and may be a great loss to the organization. A match director who was one hell of a nice guy now has doubts about what path forward in long range shooting they may take.
There are the sponsors that donated prizes for our Nationals how hard is it going to be to get the trust and respect of the sponsors back and donating prizes once again.
Then there are the shooters that were at the match. There was at least one spectator who wants to shoot long range and now he is questioning if he wants to be involved at all with said organization. There were a couple of new shooters at the match that only had been to one match before the nationals are they going to want to continue? Then there are regular competitors whose confidence is shaken to the core and want nothing to do with the organization anymore nor have faith that the right thing will be done. We lost the range and shooters in Colorado due to one individual we are probably loosing all the shooters in the Northwest due to the same individual.

The chain reaction is much more far spreading than just a single match outcome. Is this the foot forward we want to put out to attract new shooters which always seems to be a topic at hand? Is this the way we want ensure that members trust and want to stay in our origination? Is this the proper path forward for an organization to grow and prosper as it moves into the future?

How could things of been different if the individual in question was dealt with quickly, responsibly and in a timely manner? We are not talking about a public flogging or a public humiliation the individual is probably humiliated enough already. A word or two from the governing body our elected officials with reassurances that this will not occur again and ensure the shooters that it will be dealt with properly and in a timely manner and it will not tolerate this type of action now or in the future. If these steps would have been taken it would have spoke volumes about the officers in the organization and given solace to all the members that the proper path forward was being taken and ensure it would be fair for all members and not just the one’s involved in the match. Silence is the worst offender of all and will always put the mind in a fast forward mode with speculation, wondering and jumping to conclusions all of which will be wrong.

I don’t blame you for deleting the thread but if said organization would have responded in a timely and proper manner could all of this have been circumvented? There has been a history in this organization’s long range shooting that if one was to take took a look at the past occurrences that have happened that raised questions in long range this individual’s action at this match would be a surprise no one.

This may be more questions than answers but if the status quo does not want to address the rank and file and answer questions about the now and future matches, the path forward then the rank and file will run awry and havoc will ensue.

For the record I am not pro NBRSA nor am I pro IBS I would like to see the proper thing dome regardless of the organization and I want to see every competitor that I shoot against have the opportunity to have all shots on the target by the rule book. Yes I am very competitive and work hard at shooting benchrest and want a win because I was the best at that match and not by default or have the opportunity stripped away.

John Crawford
 
Great Post !!!!!

Glad to read your opinion and a great manner to how you wrote it..........

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
 
Edlongrange,

You’re welcome and it was left intentionally open and ambiguous as to not point fingers at an individual or organization. The players involved in the matter at hand know who they are and hopefully read and understand what there actions may have brought about. That what happened at the match not only affected a few shooters at the top but could have a much farther reaching consequence to the long range community and its health and growth as an organization.

Donovan, you’re welcome.

John
 
Probably stated in the thread I deleted but what actually happened - with no embellishment? If not in accordance with the rules, why did the referees let it happen?

Is there a formal protest in process? Pretty sure a formal protest won't fix this but nonetheless.....

Have the rules been faithfully followed until this incident (all the rules)?

If the NBRSA wasn't represented at the match then who were those guys?

What should the NBRSA board do? What would you do as a voting director?

"You" meaning anyone that is reading this and please don't assume a defensive on my part. I've nothing to defend.







Wilbur
I was the guy who called your house and left you the message thinking you were still on the board of directors.The only director I haven't contacted was Bud Mundy as something is wrong with his phone or phone line.
I will answer all your inquiries and if anything seems like a embellishment let me know.

What happened was the nbrsa 1,000 yard nationals which is a 3 day match was stopped 2 days and 1 relay into the match because of rain.

What happened is that the 2 referees informed the nbrsa vice president and the regional director of this on thursday and suggested a two day match.

What happened was the two nbrsa members said no to the two day match.

On the 3rd day of the match the rain came down as expected and the targets were getting destroyed at an alarming rate.

What happened then was the 2 referees called the match director and requested that he report to the pits to hash out the problem.

What happened next was the match director contacted the pits and said the two nbrsa officials wanted all the shooters on the line for a vote.

What happened next was a war of words over the radio of who should go were.

What happened next was the firing line was declared safe and the pits were emptied of shooters.

When the pit crew got to the line a nbrsa official anounced a few options.One option was that no money would be refunded no matter what so not really an option.
Another option was to continue the match on monday.
Another option was to go home.

What happened next was a vote was held to pick the option.

I and 6 other shooters voted to shoot on monday.
The nbrsa vice president and about 10 others voted to go home.

It was at about this time that everybody on the line drove down to the staging area and all the prizes and awards were going to handed out.

What happened next was the nbrsa vice president asked me why I was putting away the best prize.
I told him if we are not having a National Champion we are not giving away the prize.

What happened next was the vice president telling me he wanted the prize to be given out.
What happened next was I told him to ask the director if the prize was going to be awarded and the director told him no.
What happened next was I locked that prize in my truck.
What happened next was the referees were done with there work in the scoring shed and came to the staging area.
What happened next was a referee yelling at the vice president that he could not stop the match per the rules.
What happened next was the vice president yelling that a vote was taken and the match was over.
The prizes and awards were handed out.
The rules and rule book were present.
I have contacted all of the directors and have asked for a specal meeting to be held.
All of the rules have not been followed 100% of the time.
The nbrsa was represented by a regional director and the vice president.
The nbrsa should oust the vice president from his office.
If I was a voting director I would vote him out.
Lynn Dragoman Jr aka Waterboy
 
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According to the current NBRSA Rulebook (as posted on their website) the Range Officer (Match Director in this case) is the only official with the authority to stop a match (after conferring with the referees). See following relevant excerpts..

H. DUTIES OF TOURNAMENT OFFICIALS.
1. RANGE OFFICER. He/She shall conduct the matches
and supervise the competitors. He/She shall direct the actions
of the Target Detail while on the range. He/She shall enforce all
safety rules. In the event of boisterous or un-sportsmanlike
conduct of a competitor, he/she shall first caution such
competitor. If the offense is repeated, he/she shall be
disqualified for the match in which that offense was committed.
Refusal to comply with an order of the Range Officer shall be
grounds for barring a competitor from the range. At each relay of
the first match of each day, general instructions shall be
announced by the Range Officer in words equivalent to the
following:

Page 43


In the event of any situation arising (e.g. Act of God)
procedures for which are not covered by these rules, the Range
Officer has full authority to stop the match and, after consultation
with the Referees, announce a decision or procedure which shall
be final and binding. Any such occurrence shall be fully reported
to the Regional Director for possible remedial legislation. Such
report shall be in writing. If at all possible, relays of a match
should not be interrupted. No match should be started if it is
assumed that all relays may not be completed (Darkness, Etc.)

Page 46



Interference in this process by NBRSA representatives was in violation of their own rules. The Range Officer failed to act appropriately.

The Range Officer (Match Director) also has the duty and the authority to first warn, then disqualify and if necessary bar from the range any competitor who displays boisterous or unsportsmanlike behavior. (see Section H.1 of the rules above)

NBRSA rules also prohibit any official except referees (as defined in the rules) from competing in a National match.

From the rule book...

(c) No official, except the Referees, shall participate as
contestants in a National Championship Tournament in which
he/she is officiating.

Page 43



In last weekends match the Range Officer/Match Director was busy competing (on relay 3, bench 11) in violation of the rules.


The existing rules seem to me to provide direction on how the two main problems that caused so much controversy should have been handled. I'm really hoping that all involved have learned something from this event and will spend a little time reading the NBRSA rules before the next National match and then abide by them.

Just one shooters observations...

Charles
 
So...was this a matter of "majority wins" in spite of the rules?

Speaking of rules, there are several "subsets" in the NBRSA rule book that support disciplines other than the original "point blank" group shooting. Seems that these subsets were thrown in there to get started and then never refined. In some cases you gotta find rules outside the subsection to fit the situation and in some cases that ain't a good thing.

I read more and found most of the answers to my questions (that I deleted). My answering machine is normaly turned off but turns itself on when the power cycles and folks leave messages. I listened to your (Lynn) message Monday and figured it was too late to call back. I'm sorry I missed your call and would enjoy talking with you anytime - please call back and I'll try to be here (leave for work at 3pm).
 
Rules!

This has been an issue with NBRSA long range.

Rules from other sections of the book should not be arbitrarily applied. Not to inflame, but as an example, the IBS does not apply rules from other sections of it's rule book.

Either the long range rules are exclusive, or they are not. If any person is allowed to select and apply rules from other sections, who, then is is the arbiter? The written word stands with much more precision than the minds of men with their pride and prejudice.
 
Speaking of rules, there are several "subsets" in the NBRSA rule book that support disciplines other than the original "point blank" group shooting. Seems that these subsets were thrown in there to get started and then never refined. In some cases you gotta find rules outside the subsection to fit the situation and in some cases that ain't a good thing.

I think Wilbur nailed it here. If the long range sub-set is incomplete or inadequate then using reasonable, fair, applicable rules from the general section of the rule book is probably the best course of action. Not good but better than no rules at all.

edlongrange...I didn't overlook the rules you cite...I just didn't want to get into all that at this time.

However, there is one more serious lack of clarity in the long range section that in my view really needs to be corrected before the next long range match. I'm referring to the rules, or lack of same, specifying when, how and exactly by whom relay and bench assignments are made. This is what I find...

K. OFFICIAL RULES FOR 1,000-YARD BENCHREST
COMPETITION.
As adopted and approved by the NBRSA, Inc. Directors at their
1998 annual meeting.

3. TOURNAMENT PROCEDURE.
(a) Competitors are assigned to relays.

Page 59

(f) Designation of shooting positions and relays shall be
determined by individual Clubs.

Page 60

(j) Once a position is determined and assigned to a
participant, that shooter may not switch positions with another
shooter and he/she may not switch benches within a match.

Page 61


The above is all I find in the long range section on this subject. Since relay and bench assignment can substantially advantage or disadvantage any individual shooter this is pretty important in my mind. Seems to me that rules should exist in the long range sub-set that require this process to be random, fair, completely transparent and observable by the shooters who will be affected.

This action, in my view, needs to be done and and new rules published well before the next long range NBRSA national level match which I believe is the 600yd Nationals in April of 2011.

Charles
 
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All,

Let’s not let personal issues and likes and dislikes of each other or what the other may have said or not said and allow this thread to digress into a foray of personal spats and grievances. It does not matter if an individual has fired a shot or not the consequences of the outcome of the match are far more reaching then a few individuals and can affect anyone in the sport or anyone who wants to get into shooting long or short range benchrest.

Keep in mind we want to keep who we have in the sport and shooting benchrest. At the same time straighten out what may be a shortcoming in the rules and try to draw in all shooters experienced in benchrest or new shooters. Our best chance at straightening out the mess that we had at our match is unity, in having unity we have strength in numbers. In bickering amongst ourselves we have… well just that in house bickering amongst ourselves that solves nothing.

Listen to the others opinion, keep an open mind and leave the personal grievances behind. If we all work for a common goal of straightening out the short comings in our rule book we will have a better chance at getting the changes correct and fair for all. We are all shooters experienced or not and will eventually be affected by the outcome regardless if we are a brand new shooter or an experienced veteran.

Please let’s keep it civil and opened minded to the others concern. Allow this thread to bring out all ideas whether or not we agree with their ideas as it will affect each and everyone of us in the end.

John
 
BTW, have you ever fired a NBRSA 600 Yard Match?

Have you ever fired a NBRSA 1000 Yard Match?

Best,

RBD


BTW do you think the people around the world reading this who HAVEN'T fired a shot in the aforementioned disciplies are driven to want to by your attitude?

Implicit in this is the idea that because a person hasn't fired "a shot in NBRSA sanctioned 600 or 1000yd" he or she is incapable of???? what???

(Also implicit is the idea that you have no idea who edlongrange is......)

I'VE fired in a few matches, all of the few sanctioned matches at our local club.

Met some good people.

Met some GREAT people as a matter of fact.....

And met some attitude that rubbed me wrong.

Attitude that would send my 6yr old to another part of the playground.

IMO "winning" on anything other than a level playing field is like jacking off and calling it love.

al
 
Edlongrange,

Your point is well taken and considered and addresses the problem only and not the root cause that enabled the problem to manifest itself to what happened at our match. The rule book needs a clear and concise 600-1000 yard section that all members can read and understand or history may very well repeat itself. As Wilbur said who is a very wise shooter and has a lot of benchrest savvy,

Speaking of rules, there are several "subsets" in the NBRSA rule book that support disciplines other than the original "point blank" group shooting. Seems that these subsets were thrown in there to get started and then never refined. In some cases you gotta find rules outside the subsection to fit the situation and in some cases that ain't a good thing.
If the root cause that allowed this to happen in the first place, gray areas in the rule book is not addressed then through our own ignorance history will repeat itself and we are doomed by our own mistakes to ensure that not all was corrected and put on a proper path forward. So far this thread has brought about other shortcomings within our long range rules and all shortcomings should be addressed and straightened out and not just the problem at hand. As alinwa said,

IMO "winning" on anything other than a level playing field is like jacking off and calling it love.
We need a clear and concise level playing field so every competitor has a fair and equal chance at competing in the sport of benchrest and we need to consider all aspects of what we feel should change, the rules that we feel should be different and push to have changes made then we can ensure that in the future this does not happen. We were complacent in not knowing as a group, myself included in not knowing and thoroughly understanding the rules that allowed this to happen. If the rule book was clear and concise and all competitors understood the rules, read the rule book this would not have happened. Keep an open mind and we can all work collectively to address all shortcomings.

Alinwa I have only one thing to say about you hijacking my thread… LMAO

John
 
Bruce
No apology is needed as we are all dealing with the outcome of the event from a different vantage point.

As to your thoughts on Edlongrange I believe his posts are spot on.
I can not find anything in the rulebook that says anything other than the Match Director runs the match.I keep reading and reading the rules and they keep saying the match director is in charge and if he calls the match it is final and binding.
It all seems perfectly clear to me.
The referees and the match director not two other shooters run the whole thing.

As long as we are pointing things out.At the safety meeting before the match started on friday the match director was extremely on the bolts open rule.
When the second relay came to the line he had to tell the vice president to open his bolt.The vice president said it was open and the match director said it needed to be fully open not just uncocked.The vice president said it wasn't in the rules.

It is my feeling that the vice president of the nbrsa should be setting an example for other shooters and not being insubordinate and confrontational on every issue so I said DQ him.He shut up and opened his bolt like everybody else on the line.
Waterboy
 
I guess only those who have run a match know how much effort it takes.
Truer words have not been spoken.

Now, if there is some 'rule' that says a match director is not allowed to participate, well that's the stupidest thing I ever heard of. Running a match is not particularly fun. To expect to find people willing to take on that job only for its entertainment value... well that's just crazy. ::4mesh just shakes his head::

What would you do as a voting director? "You" meaning anyone that is reading this
I would try to determine what the popular sentiment was before going off half cocked. I would attempt first to get those responsible to make things right with no additional outside input. Assuming that failed, I'd try to fix this up and finalize it, then put in motion something to make sure it doesn't happen again. Almost certainly, I'd put a few beers in between those sentences.

Clarification would be a great place to start on rules, but, writing more has been shown for decades (elsewhere) to accomplish nothing good. Nice, simple, policies and rules that are easy to read, and actually apply to the shooting format are a great place to start.

All the rules in the world do not run the match... Get more people involved with that.
 
In the event of any situation arising (e.g. Act of God)
procedures for which are not covered by these rules, the Range
Officer has full authority to stop the match and, after consultation
with the Referees, announce a decision or procedure which shall
be final and binding.


H. DUTIES OF TOURNAMENT OFFICIALS.
1. RANGE OFFICER. He/She shall conduct the matches
and supervise the competitors. He/She shall direct the actions
of the Target Detail while on the range. He/She shall enforce all
safety rules. In the event of boisterous or un-sportsmanlike
conduct of a competitor, he/she shall first caution such
competitor. If the offense is repeated, he/she shall be
disqualified for the match in which that offense was committed.
Refusal to comply with an order of the Range Officer shall be
grounds for barring a competitor from the range.


4Mesh
Do you see anything in the 2 rules posted above that needs more clarity?
Lynn
 
Some good stuff here.... some stuff that reaffirms my faith in humanity. Reaffirms that there ARE still people out there who understand the difference between winning and winning at the expense of others.

I hate to lose but I love to be beat.

One of the things that has never appealed to me is learning the codes, paying the price, spending the time and becoming part of the Good Ol' Boy's Network. One of the things that has always appealed to me is hanging with a group of guys who'll say "Broke down? Here, use mine"..... and proceed to fairly THUMP you, flat out, square on and with a smile.

thanks guys.

And John, you hit me hard with that hijacking reference.

Sorry, I'll back on out now.

Whichever way it goes I sincerely hope to shoot with a bunch of y'all....

al
 
Bruce
I am not an expert on the rules but if the match director is not supposed to shoot why didn't the nbrsa vice president or the regional director tell him?
I would think as much as the vice president quotes or references the rulebook he would know who is allowed to shoot?
Waterboy
 
Past Precedence
I think two years ago at The NBRSA Cactus Classic World Team qualifying event the match was stopped due to weather yet the results stood.I guess we would have to go back and see who qualified for the World Team at that match and get there opinion on how we should proceed here.
Lynn
 
I think what is at stake here is "credibility" when a potential benchrest competitor (long range or other) read the allegations that some shooters pick their own relays and not at random. I feel bad for the shooter that comes to compete and takes the relay that is given to him-he most likely isn't on a even playing field.
 
Regarding the NBRSA rule prohibiting the Range Officer/Match Director from competing in National Championship Tournaments. Below is the section that deals with this matter excerpted from the online rulebook: (I had the wrong page number in my previous post...sorry!)

F. TOURNAMENT PROCEDURE.
10. APPOINTMENT OF TOURNAMENT OFFICIALS.
(a) In all Registered Tournaments there shall be a Range
Officer, 3 Referees, a Statistician, and an Official Scorer.
Except in Championship Tournaments, the same person may
hold the last 2 offices.
(b) Except in National Championship Tournaments, the
Host Club shall appoint all the officers except 2 Referees. The
Regional Director of NBRSA shall appoint a Chairman Referee
who, with the Club Referee shall appoint the third Referee.
(c) In National Championship Tournaments, the President
of NBRSA shall appoint the Statistician and the Official Scorer.
The Director of the Host Region shall appoint from among
registered shooters, 3 Referees and an alternate Referee. The
appointed Referees shall select the Chairman Referee. The
Host Club, subject to approval by the President of NBRSA,
shall appoint the Range Officer.

Page 41



(c) No official, except the Referees, shall participate as
contestants in a National Championship Tournament in which
he/she is officiating.

Page 42



Individual personalities and personal loyalties aside it seems to me that this is fair, reasonable and necessary rule. And one that should be enforced at future National Championship Tournaments...for several reasons.

In my view serving as Match Director at a Nationals match is a difficult, full time job during the match. How can a guy do this properly when he is also concerned about getting his equipment together, setting up and taking down, shooting and arranging for his target pulling responsibilities to be fulfilled? Pretty had to do, I think. I can barely keep things straight when I'm just shooting and pulling much less trying to officiate at the same time.

All shooters, including those who travel long distances at substantial expense to shoot the match, expect and deserve to be offered a well organized, well supervised and smooth running match. The Match Director is the key guy that is responsible for getting this done. Officiating should get his full attention in my opinion.

Granted this is a tough job and I fully appreciate the amount of work and dedication involved. And how hard it is to find guys who can and will serve. But, if a club bids for the Nationals they should have the necessary positions covered with willing and capable people. Otherwise, as we have recently seen, chaos can result.

My comments are not directed at or intended to disparage the work and contribultions of Craig St. Clair, the R.O./Match Director at the 2010 1K Nationals. I like Craig a lot and am familiar with his health issues. I can't imagaine trying to deal with the stress of running a match, and shooting in it, the day before I was going to have some fairly major surgery. I wish him well and hope to seem him again next year....a lot lighter, a lot more healthy and either officiating OR shooting...but not both.

I'm hoping 2011 will be a great year for NBRSA long range. Let's look to the future.

Charles
 
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Minor point

The match director and the range officer may not be the same person in every case. The range officer is considered the "official".
 
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