Why is the Savage Target Action better than other "budget" actions?

J

Jimsfish67

Guest
I'm going to try to keep this short. Basically I'm building a precision rifle for bench shoot (not competition) and trying to wring the most accuracy out of a somewhat limited budget. I have every part worked out except the action. I keep reading and hearing conflicting data on how much the action contributes to accuracy. So to be specific the build will look something like:

- Barrel: Bartlein from Bugholes, Rock Creek from PVA, or Shilen from Northland pre-fits (depending on action). Medium Palma 24in chambered in 6.5CM and threaded for my TBAC can.

- Trigger: Jewel, Huber, TriggerTech, Timney, Calvin, etc. (whatever fits action).

- Stock/Chassis: MDT, McMillan, KRG, or similar (again depending on action).

- Action: Options are Tikka T3x, Savage 10, Ruger American, Howa 1500, and the Savage Target Action. None will have work done, just the stock action.

So my question is this; if you build the five actions mentioned above into the rifles described above, would the Savage Target Action (or any of the other actions for that matter) have an advantage over the others when it comes to pure accuracy? Off a bench with front and rear bag or bipod and rear bag and tuned hand loads, would there be any noticeable difference in accuracy at 100y or 1200y for that matter?

I get that consistency leads to accuracy, I'm just not sure what/how the savage PTA without any work done on it delivers more of this than any of the other actions mentioned, and if that would in tern yield noticeable accuracy gains. Hoping someone can explain this to me, thanks in advance!
 
It's 1st about design and 2ndly about availability of aftermarket parts........... of those listed, Savage wins, hands down.

Of the "cheap" guns I prefer Walmart Rem 700 to all of the above BUT, will pay for a Savage Accu-Stock setup. Because the stock is worth it. I've been trying for 6yrs to buy JUST the stocks, with no success.
 
The only trigger available for the savage action is the Rifle Basix 2, it is a vast improvement over the stock accutrigger but is no where near a jewel, B&A, etc. I have a Model 12 F Class 6BR and it is a very nice rifle and will shoot high 1's at a 100 yds but it is a lot of work to do it with any regularity.

I think it is a great factory gun but you have to accept it is not in a class with custom BR rifles.
 
It seems that you're buying everything that makes a benchrest rifle but not paying the extra for a BENCHREST action. Since I don't know...how much difference in cost is involved in building the rifle you describe and an all out Benchrest rifle?
 
Well what I'm doing isn't exactly benchrest. I'm not competing, I have a front and rear sandbag for the bench, and about 1/2 of the shooting will be done prone off a rear bag and bipod. I don't want it to be very heavy and bulky. You'll notice the parts selected like a 24in medium palma and a KRG stock are more PRS than traditional benchrest. That said, I'm not going to be doing PRS either, just looking to squeeze the most accuracy possible out of a limited budget for fun.

That being the case the question becomes; will a $500 barrel be held back by a $300 action for the kind of shooting we are talking about? I've asked this question of a lot of people, and about 2/3rds say "no the accuracy is in the barrel+ammo+shooter" and the remaining 1/3rd say "yes lack of consistency in the action will cost you X amount of accuracy." I really don't know who to believe, hence my post.
 
If you screw on an after market pre fit bbl you already gave up.
You really need a bbl fir to the actin/bolt if you want to see accuracy.

You need to define size of target and distance, decide on an accuracy level
and then pick a cartridge. I am not sure the 6.5 creedmore is the best.
 
Very interesting, you are the first person to have said that the pre-fits will yield less accuracy than a custom fit. That does make sense to me, but I've never read anything to that effect or been warned about it. Or to put it another way, I keep seeing excellent results with Savage and other barrels that "screw on with a nut." But my definition of excellent and what I want to be doing with the rifle are:

1.) 1/2moa steel and similar targets from 100y-1200y (max distance at range).

2.) Printing <1/2moa (even if only slightly) five shot groups CONSISTENTLY at 100y-400y on paper.

As far as I can tell the 6.5CM loads won't be holding me back (much) on this front, and neither will the pre-fit barrels (although I could be wrong here). It is just the actions I was unsure of.
 
Sometimes

Jimsfish67 said:
Very interesting, you are the first person to have said that the pre-fits will yield less accuracy than a custom fit. That does make sense to me, but I've never read anything to that effect or been warned about it. Or to put it another way, I keep seeing excellent results with Savage and other barrels that "screw on with a nut." But my definition of excellent and what I want to be doing with the rifle are:

1.) 1/2moa steel and similar targets from 100y-1200y (max distance at range).

2.) Printing <1/2moa (even if only slightly) five shot groups CONSISTENTLY at 100y-400y on paper.

As far as I can tell the 6.5CM loads won't be holding me back (much) on this front, and neither will the pre-fit barrels (although I could be wrong here). It is just the actions I was unsure of.
Click to expand...

the best way to approach things is to build the rifle just the way you want to and then see if it shoots consistently < 1/2 moa or not. Either your ideas will work to your goals or they won't. In the process you will learn a lot about consistent accuracy. There are a few elements that all combine to produce accuracy...the quality of the rifle components, the skill of the builder, quality loaded ammunition the rifle likes good bag manners and learning to read the wind.

I have seen a savage action, accutrigger with a custom fit 6BR barrel do quite well in short range score BR. Not on a par with a true custom rifle but good. All depends on what you need out of the rifle. If you are going to shoot a lot of 1000 yard, I thing there are better chamberings than the 6.5 Creedmore. Good luck.
 
Is there any reason to pick the Savage over the Tikka or Ruger or Howa though? I keep hearing people use it, I just don't know why they use it over the other actions. I've heard "floating bolt head makes up for machining imperfections" but I'm not sure how true that is, or how much of a difference it makes?
 
Jimsfish67 said:
Is there any reason to pick the Savage over the Tikka or Ruger or Howa though? I keep hearing people use it, I just don't know why they use it over the other actions. I've heard "floating bolt head makes up for machining imperfections" but I'm not sure how true that is, or how much of a difference it makes?
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Yes


because if you build all 4 guns "identically" the Savage will win, due to design.

The reasons would (do, did) take a book to explain.

Several of them. One just came out.

And a 700 will beat all 4
 
GeneT said:
Which one is that? (I assume we mean book...)

GsT
Click to expand...


The book that just came out is called 'Centrefire Rifle Accuracy' By William Hambly-Clark

Another one which explains well "why" tubular actions work well for accurizing is of course the Olde Standard by 'Mic' McPherson, 'Accurizing The Factory Rifle' but there are a bunch of others........from Ackley to De Haas To Van Zwoll. (tryin' for an "A to Z" there LOL)


'Rifle Accuracy Facts' by Vaughn gets into the "why"


https://www.amazon.com/Chambering-A...1524291062&sr=8-6&keywords=book+of+the++rifle
 
Thanks so much for the book recommendation, I've ordered a copy for future projects.

However as far as I understand the sections on actions is about how to accurize factory actions. I will not be accurizing or paying to have accurized the action on this build. If I was going to be doing that, I'd just buy a custom action as the price differential is minimal (especially since I don't have the tools to do it myself as of now).

So when you say if those rifles were built identically accuracy would go R700>Savage PTA>everything else, I'm assuming you mean AFTER they were trued/blueprinted and worked on? What about in stock configuration?
 
alinwa said:
The book that just came out is called 'Centrefire Rifle Accuracy' By William Hambly-Clark

Another one which explains well "why" tubular actions work well for accurizing is of course the Olde Standard by 'Mic' McPherson, 'Accurizing The Factory Rifle' but there are a bunch of others........from Ackley to De Haas To Van Zwoll. (tryin' for an "A to Z" there LOL)


'Rifle Accuracy Facts' by Vaughn gets into the "why"


https://www.amazon.com/Chambering-A...1524291062&sr=8-6&keywords=book+of+the++rifle
Click to expand...

H-C's book has been out at least a couple of years. I thought there was something new and worth reading.

GsT
 
Jimsfish67 said:
Thanks so much for the book recommendation, I've ordered a copy for future projects.

However as far as I understand the sections on actions is about how to accurize factory actions. I will not be accurizing or paying to have accurized the action on this build. If I was going to be doing that, I'd just buy a custom action as the price differential is minimal (especially since I don't have the tools to do it myself as of now).

So when you say if those rifles were built identically accuracy would go R700>Savage PTA>everything else, I'm assuming you mean AFTER they were trued/blueprinted and worked on? What about in stock configuration?
Click to expand...


no no no...... "design" IS NOT about "trued/blueprinted" etc etc. It's about how the rifles actually work.

In Short......The rifles which exhibit the greatest accuracy potential are those which will most accurately reproduce vibration patterns.

Not "damp"
Nor "dampen" LOL!
Not eliminate
Not control
Not randomize but

REPRODUCE consistent vibration patterns.

IN MY OPINION :)

(But I DO build hunting rifles up to and including 5000ftlb'ers in weights down to sub-7lb which shoot AGGREGATE GROUPS of five shots into one hole.....)

And any rifle I build/sell has the actual targets fired, EVERY BULLET through the barrel from first to sale...... documented....... absolutely none thrown out. Rifles that YOU or anyone else can go out and shoot those same groups.

I build rifles where you CAN say, "Hey, watch this!"
 
Jimsfish67

If I somehow indicated that William Hambly-Clark weighs into my opinion that the secret to accuracy is repeatable vibration patterns, that IS NOT what I meant to say nor to imply......

I am saying that I have a lot of accurate rifles, built by a variety of people and that I BUILD accurate rifles based on input from lots of other people and that from collating information from LOTS of other people and using the findings therefrom I HAVE OPINIONS.

They are not Hambly-Clark's opinions nor anyone else's. Nor are they all found "in a book."

There is no "one book" in fact this forum has more information on real accuracy than any one book.

What I'm trying to say is you'se either gotta' do a LOT of reading, or spend a LOT of money, or lissen to a LOT of opinions...... and then set ye FORTH! :)

Give it a go my man!

You are getting a lot of good advice from people who actually do SHOOT small.... (altho please let it be said that "small" is a relative thing!)

To me "small" is round.

"Quarter Minute" is turtle-shaped maybe.

And any group with paper in it isn't worth calling a "group" except in the general sense.
 
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