Why I anneal (photo heavy)

A

Al Nyhus

"It'll never work!"
Here's a pictorial outlining one of the reasons I anneal my cases. This example is one of my 30BR's and follows a case from virgin brass throughout a bit of it's lifespan. Primers are removed in all instances so as not to affect the meaurements.

#1. Virgin case ready to be fireformed. I set the shoulder at .001 shorter than my chamber. Datum line is 3.162. The Lapua annealing coloration is readily apparent.
anneal13162.jpg
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#2. Case has been fired once. Datum line is 3.163 as it comes from the chamber.
anneal23163.jpg
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#3. Once fired case is sized and the shoulder pushed back .002. Datrum line is 3.161.
anneal33161.jpg
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#4. Ten (10) firings later. Case has been run through the same die setup as produced the 3.161 datum line figure. Case is getting hard to chamber. Datum line measures 3.163. The brass is getting hardened to the point that the shoulder no longer 'stays' where the die puts it. It lenghthens as a result of springback.
anneal43163.jpg
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#5. Here's the same case after I annealed it and ran it through the die setup. The shoulder now stays at the original die setting. Datum line measures 3.161, the same as this cases measured after being fired once and run through the die. Notice the coloration on the case from my annealing process.
anneal53161.jpg
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For what it's worth. Good shootin'. -Al
 
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Boyd

That is what I do.
Since I do not shoot cases in matches long enough to run into the problem that Al shows, it does show up when I use the cases for practice.
I just adjust the die so I get the correct bump. Seems easier than annealing.......jackie
 
That is strange

I though I disabled that PM box.

If someone wants to talk with me personally, I prefer to do it by phone.
My Cell Phone # is public knowledge. (832) 689-4157.

I don't mind putting it out, because I can have my shop's secretary change it any time I wish........jackie
 
Thanks, Al

Nice of you to take the time.
I'd love to hear about your annealing process.
 
Annealed

Al,
What is your annealing process?

Boyd, Jackie,
It seems to me that trying to bump back the shoulder more would only work the brass more thus multiplying the problem?
Do you guys ever anneal?
 
I would also be interested in your annealing process. I have a system that works , but always looking for a better way. I use a FLS die that floates in its
7/8 -14 threads. it has a short arm attached which is adjusted in an
arched slot which is attached to the press. It can be adjusted to nearly
anything very fast. Sneaking up on shoulder bump is simple. I did learn the
hard way, when I bumped a new set of cases after firing with the setting
for the old cases
 
No, I don't anneal, and setting my die is just a part of my routine that hardly takes any time at all. I use a chunk of barrel with a partial chamber to gage setback.

Lately, I have gone to a Lee lock ring, so there is no locking or unlocking, just turn the die a smidge with the ring set for enough friction to keep it from rotating. The metal part of the ring is not bottomed on the press,letting the die float a little.

The only time that I have had brass get hard enough to be a problem was when I was using a FL die that was reducing the diameter of the shoulder over .002.

Currently, I am using a Harrell Vari-base die that sizes the neck with a bushing, bumps the shoulder without reducing its diameter, and sizes the back of the case, this with a load of 133 that would have the case heaping full if I didn't take a long time to fill it with a long drop tube. This is the load that two of my barrels like best.
 
Anneal

The only time I ever had to anneal cases was when I was making something like a 30x44 out of a 308. I annealed so that the shoulders would form easier.
I have never annealed a 6PPC case......jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
The only time I ever had to anneal cases was when I was making something like a 30x44 out of a 308. I annealed so that the shoulders would form easier.
I have never annealed a 6PPC case......jackie
Click to expand...
I (for at least one) would be quite interested in what you found -- maybe with some of those one-grand-agg-&-retired cases? The reason I ask is I use to anneal cases after about every third match, and my 30-piece complement of brass would last about 9 matches. But I was shooting around 28.2 grains of 133 -- what would now be considered the lower window . . .
 
How do you measure neck tension? You don't you say? Neck tension is not important enough to worry about it? The harder the case gets the bullet release is just the same? So it's rally just a matter of the necks getting thicker?

Long ago I started to anneal after any mods to my brass. What a difference. I've yet to loose brass for any other reason than pocket failure.
 
Kent: Press used was an RCBS Rockchucker. My little Partner press that I use at the range gives the same readings, though. Honestly, I thought the Partner might flex more and skew the readings, but back-to-back measuring against the Rockchucker shows that's not the case with this combo of chamber/brass/dies. In a situation with a longer case and/or more dimensional sizing, I wouldn't be surprised to find some measurable flex in the Partner.

Boyd & Jackie: I don't like 'chasing' the shoulder bump with the die. As the brass hardens, pretty soon you have to move the shoulder .004 to get it to stay bumped at .002. Next you'll have to move it .005 or .006...and so it goes. And all the time you're doing this you're just making the problem worse by moving the brass more. That the neck tension changes dramatically during this goes without saying.

It doesn't take much time to anneal cases the way I do it. To anneal, I simply knock the primers out and don't do any case body sizing since the neck diameter, shoulder diameter and datum length will all grow as the heat relaxes the brass. I annealed 50 cases a couple of evening ago and it took me 15 minutes from start to finish for the actual annealing process.

Jerry: On a fired case, the die changes the shoulder diameter .0015-.002 and .0005 at .200 ahead of the extractor groove. It barely touches the body of the case..just enough to wipe the Imperial off. :) With enough H4198 to zing my 117's @ 3,100+, you can open the bolt with one finger on a fired case. After 5-6 firings, you can just start to pick up a bit of drag when you close the bolt with the firing pin assy. removed. At 7-8 firings you can feel it with the pin. assy in place. By 9-10 firings, the bolt is getting pretty tight when you close it. I anneal every 6-7 firings and keep ahead of it.

Bob, Rory and Henry: The way I anneal is pretty simple. It's a Meeks annealer gizmo that goes on the end of a standard handheld BernzOmatic bottle. I set the cases in a alum. cake pan with 1/2" of water in it to keep the case heads cool and act as a heat sink. I fire up the gizmo and put it over the case neck at the body/neck junction for 12 seconds. I used a Tempil to find out how long to keep the heat on..when it melted, I noted the time and have used the same time ever since. On longer cases, bigger/smaller..this will be a different time.

When I'm done annealing, I just wash 'em in some hot water and liquid dishwashing detergent, then rinse 'em and blow 'em dry. If I want to speed this process up, I just dunk 'em in acetone...depends on how much time I want to take. The acetone will loosen up the powder residue inside the cases so make sure you blow the cases out. Then, as Ted Nugent would say, they're "...cocked, locked and ready to rock!" :cool:

One thing I have noticed is that whatever case I'm annealing..with 1/2" of water you'll see little bubble start to form at the water level along the case body about 2 seconds before the Tempil melts. It can be a .17 Javelina, a 30BR, a 22BR...makes no difference...the bubbles all appear at the same time. Must be the water here in The Forbidden Zone! :eek:

Not saying everyone should be annealing or that this is some 'Annealing A-Z' handbook. :D But I get a lot of questions about this and though I'd post it here for people to mull over, adapt, disregard...whatever works for anyones particular situation. :)
 
My name is Rust and I anneal, I'm an anneal-aholic (read that as cheap).

Al - Just to compare notes, do you use a Tempil Stick or the Tempil Fluid as marketed by Hornady? If you use the Tempil Stick what temperature rating do you use?

I anneal primarily to control neck tension for low ES/SD, but also to conserve brass from an exceptionally good batch of Lapua 6.5 X 284 and to keep a uniform shoulder bump without having to adjust my basic die setup. Likewise with my other match or accuracy brass.
 
Rust said:
My name is Rust and I anneal, I'm an anneal-aholic (read that as cheap).

Al - Just to compare notes, do you use a Tempil Stick or the Tempil Fluid as marketed by Hornady? If you use the Tempil Stick what temperature rating do you use?

I anneal primarily to control neck tension for low ES/SD, but also to conserve brass from an exceptionally good batch of Lapua 6.5 X 284 and to keep a uniform shoulder bump without having to adjust my basic die setup. Likewise with my other match or accuracy brass.
Click to expand...

I use the liquid to set up the machine on just one case. One bottle = a life time supply. I have been to every welding supply house in the country tring to find the 650 to 660 degree sticks. I hope you have better luck than I've had getting the sticks.
 
Patent # 1617859 has you packing the item to be annealed in copper powder dust. This is what the MEEKS patent calls for. Is this what you do Sir?:)
 
Al, I just got into annealing myself and I got my 650 degree Tempilstik from McMaster Carr. Best I can remember, they did'nt list a 660. Seems to work pretty good. Regards, John.
 
Big Al - I use a $14 hot plate with a scrap piece of 7/8" steel (I'm cheap) with countersunk holes drilled in it on top, the holes slightly larger than neck diameter so as to prevent the necks from getting stuck from expansion. The hot plate is turned all the way up, and after a few minutes the steel plate is at maximum temperature. Then it's a matter of usingTtempil Fluid to determine how long to leave the brass in the plate. The plate currently has a dozen countersunk holes and is cartridge specific, the countersink matches the shoulder angle, just grind a large drill bit to the correct angle to do the countersink and an old half broken off bit works fine to make a countersink out of (might have mentioned I'm cheap before).
 
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