Unregistered Matches v. Registered Matches

[Hunter]

What do y’all think are the main reasons most shooters who are not seriously chasing HOF, SOY or World Team recognition shun unregistered club matches? The reason I ask is that I’m puzzled over the poor attendance at some of the unregistered club matches compared to what's typically much better attendance at “standard-type” registered matches (i.e., those that don’t offer a path to the aforementioned recognition). I think it's safe to say that club matches oftentimes cost less, are more frequent and/or closer-by than many "standard-type" registered matches.

 

[B_Rob85]

If we’re talking about short range group, I like the idea of having a moving backer. Also, not saying the non registered matches don’t have great shooters present, but I want to learn from and shoot against the best. I know I’ll get that at registered matches.

Having said that, if I had well ran unregistered matches local to me I’d probably participate.

 

[jackie schmidt]

The vast majority of unregistered matches are score. The reason is simple. All you have to do is hang a target. No moving backer.

Years ago we used to shoot a Group at American Shooting Center in non registered Club Matches, no moving backer. It always amazed me how many shooters would shoot great aggs at these, but never attend a Registered Match. That pesky moving backer was probably the biggest reason.

We get about the same attendance at our Club Matches as we do Registered Matches. We shoot score.

 

[FBecigneul]

Absolutely right Jackie. Nobody cheats; they just lose track of how many shots they fired. We had the same things going on at Harrison. Paul, Larry Feusse, Al Walewski, and I built moving backers at Harrison and the groups got bigger while attendance went down.

 

[WyleWD]

Couple of questions.....

What do y’all think are the main reasons most shooters who are not seriously chasing HOF, SOY or World Team recognition shun unregistered club matches? The reason I ask is that I’m puzzled over the poor attendance at some of the unregistered club matches compared to what's typically much better attendance at “standard-type” registered matches (i.e., those that don’t offer a path to the aforementioned recognition). I think it's safe to say that club matches oftentimes cost less, are more frequent and/or closer-by than many "standard-type" registered matches.

At the unregistered club matches you're referring to: Do the same shooter or shooters win almost all the time? Does anyone complain about the rules or timing of the matches?

And lastly have you asked your prospective shooters in the area why they aren't showing up? WD

 

[Dan H]

?

Absolutely right Jackie. Nobody cheats; they just lose track of how many shots they fired. We had the same things going on at Harrison. Paul, Larry Feusse, Al Walewski, and I built moving backers at Harrison and the groups got bigger while attendance went down.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[FBecigneul]

And now back to Hunter:
I can only speak on my reasons for shooting reg vs. non-reg. A few years ago I refused to shoot unregistered score matches. I wanted IBS points and recognition. And then IBS matches were no longer available in Michigan and there were none in Ohio, Ill., Ind. so if I wanted to chase points I had to hit the long trail to Penn. and beyond. The last year I went to the annual meeting in Harrisburg it was recorded that IBS spent $51,000.00 for awards and prizes. These were prizes that benefitted the east coaster. Jim Wooten from Georgia won shooter of the year but he and Rippee put over 17,000 miles on the motor home chasing those points. This was at a time when money was tight. IBS lost the Precision Shooting Magazine and so we lost publicity. I reasoned that belonging to IBS and shooting IBS matches was money poorly spent. When the IBS 100-200 score nationals was held at Chippewa in Wadsworth, Ohio. One, one shooter from Pennsylvania was there. It was too far to travel for the others. The next year the IBS 100-200 score nationals was at Webster City, Iowa. There were more Penn. and eastern states there. I don’t know what was going on but it wasn't healthy for IBS and shooting in general. Score matches, unregistered, can be efficiently run as long as you adhere to the rules either set down before the season starts or as written in the rule books. I also like that factory guns can compete at these matches as long as everyone there agrees to the rules set down at the start of the year at that range. And remember that four shots on a score target gets you no more than 40-4X.

 

[mwezell]

And now back to Hunter:
I can only speak on my reasons for shooting reg vs. non-reg. A few years ago I refused to shoot unregistered score matches. I wanted IBS points and recognition. And then IBS matches were no longer available in Michigan and there were none in Ohio, Ill., Ind. so if I wanted to chase points I had to hit the long trail to Penn. and beyond. The last year I went to the annual meeting in Harrisburg it was recorded that IBS spent $51,000.00 for awards and prizes. These were prizes that benefitted the east coaster. Jim Wooten from Georgia won shooter of the year but he and Rippee put over 17,000 miles on the motor home chasing those points. This was at a time when money was tight. IBS lost the Precision Shooting Magazine and so we lost publicity. I reasoned that belonging to IBS and shooting IBS matches was money poorly spent. When the IBS 100-200 score nationals was held at Chippewa in Wadsworth, Ohio. One, one shooter from Pennsylvania was there. It was too far to travel for the others. The next year the IBS 100-200 score nationals was at Webster City, Iowa. There were more Penn. and eastern states there. I don’t know what was going on but it wasn't healthy for IBS and shooting in general. Score matches, unregistered, can be efficiently run as long as you adhere to the rules either set down before the season starts or as written in the rule books. I also like that factory guns can compete at these matches as long as everyone there agrees to the rules set down at the start of the year at that range. And remember that four shots on a score target gets you no more than 40-4X.

Francis, I'm going by memory here but it may have been a factor in some shooters not traveling to the 2008 IBS Nats at Chippewa. Hurricane Ike made it all the way up there, leaving millions without power in its wake. Gas was in short supply for a period there and it was $5 bucks a gallon IF you could find it at all.
Just saying that there were likely other factors in that one scenario. Fwiw, I was there. I'll never forget that match, nor the trip home. It was eery driving for miles and miles without a light in sight, anywhere.

 

[FBecigneul]

You’re right on all counts, Mike.

 

[Hunter]

Please see the bold text below for my replies.

If we’re talking about short range group, I like the idea of having a moving backer. The moving backer deal doesn't bother me; I just like to shoot in a competitive environment -- preferably, closer-by than farther away. ...

Having said that, if I had well ran unregistered matches local to me I’d probably participate. Where are you located?

The vast majority of unregistered matches are score. The reason is simple. All you have to do is hang a target. No moving backer. I've never been to an unregistered group match that uses moving backers.

...

We get about the same attendance at our Club Matches as we do Registered Matches. We shoot score. About how many shooters do y'all typically have at your club matches?

At the unregistered club matches you're referring to: Do the same shooter or shooters win almost all the time? Of the last ten club matches, one guy has won four times; two guys have won twice, and two guys have won once. Does anyone complain about the rules or timing of the matches? Not that I know of.

And lastly have you asked your prospective shooters in the area why they aren't showing up? No, but I may do that soon.

A few years ago I refused to shoot unregistered score matches. I wanted IBS points and recognition. I understand the attraction of chasing recognition; however, I suspect a lot of shooters don't have a realistic chance of getting HOF, SOY or World Team recognition. During that time period were you willing to shoot "standard-type" registered group matches but not club matches? If so, why? ... Score matches, unregistered, can be efficiently run as long as you adhere to the rules either set down before the season starts or as written in the rule books. I also like that factory guns can compete at these matches as long as everyone there agrees to the rules set down at the start of the year at that range. The same can be said for unregistered group matches.

Again, I don't understand why those shooters who are not seriously in the chase for "big-time" recognition shun unregistered club matches that are within reasonably close driving distance. (Actually, I'm beginning to wonder why I care.) Could it be that:

1. longer driving distances prompt shooters to want a two-day shoot? [It seems as though not-so-close-by matches don't affect the one-day IBS shoots.]

2. folks want the assurance of shooting against the "best of the best" or against more shooters, both of which they are more likely to do at a registered match? [After a lower-tier shooter, like me, does that a few times, I'd think that attraction would become secondary to the opportunity of shooting closer-by club shoots -- that are cheaper.]

3. there are so many club shoots and so few BR shooters that the number of shooters are spread "thin" for any one shoot? [Maybe so.]


Feel free to keep sharing comments.

 

[B_Rob85]

Hunter,

I’m located in SW Ohio and I’m more focused on group matches at the moment. To me, the hassle of packing and unpacking, plus travel, isn’t worth it for a single day match.

 

[jackie schmidt]

Hunter,,,,,,
At our Tomball Club Matches, we average about 20 shooters. We have had as many as 40.

I shoot both Registered Group and Score as well as the Club Matches. I wish we had more one day Group matches, where you shoot a Grand Agg and go home. But the Sanctioning Bodies seem to be locked into the Two Gun Format.

Sunday, I am driving over to Lake Charles, about 2 1/2 hours, to shoot a Registered VFS Match. I will leave about 3:30 AM Sunday Morning, get there, set up, shoot the 100/200, and be back home by 7:00 PM.

We will be shooting against the best Louisiana and Texas has to offer.

 

[alinwa]

A view from the cheap seats, some points from MY perspective. Maybe just to show that we're all driven differently???

Maybe because of a deep-seated masochistic streak....

I dunno

I've been to all sorts of unregistered matches....and I mis-doubt I'll EVER go to one again.

I've also been to all sorts of public ranges.... and hope to NEVER go again.

And the idea of going to registered matches for "recognition" is repugnant to me.

silly

I don't even get it.

I want to shoot registered matches because I want to test my abilities side-by-side with the best.

period.

I don't give a rat's ass about the size of the prize or the pixtures that'll be seen by 11 people. I learned I was on the front of a magazine because my wife posted it on our family facebook page and that popped up in my notifications..... I got home and looked at the cover of the issue setting by the throne and said "Huh, so yup, I guess that IS me....."

I never see myself from that perspective

anyways.......

I shoot in a kiddy match with locals.... I get looked sideways at.

I bring my guns to a local range and shoot........I get looked sideways at.

The local range has a local night shoot every week, 4 times a month. For like 6 bucks. I've never attended.

I shoot at home.

And at registered Matches when I get out.

When I pay great sums of money to set down next to a known good shooter and compete on the same relay in the same conditions at a registered Match.... then and ONLY then can I be assured that I'm testing my abilities in the real world,

that and only that makes me happy,

me....


"I don't think like you"


But then, in my worldview, that's a GOOD thing!

 

[Hunter]

Again, my replies are in bold text below.

To me, the hassle of packing and unpacking, plus travel, isn’t worth it for a single day match. I can understand the "isn't worth it" part; that's why I travel "light" -- but, no one has ever accused me of being one of "the best" shooters. As for two-day matches, they often remind me of trying to drink from a fire hose.

At our Tomball Club Matches, we average about 20 shooters. We have had as many as 40. What a great turnout -- congratulations on whatever you're doing. BTW, do y'all actually use moving backers for the club group shoots?

I shoot both Registered Group and Score as well as the Club Matches. I wish we had more one day Group matches, where you shoot a Grand Agg and go home. But the Sanctioning Bodies seem to be locked into the Two Gun Format. Why don't y'all shoot unregistered group matches? If it's because of moving backers, who says you have to use those?

I want to shoot registered matches because I want to test my abilities side-by-side with the best. Long ago, I concluded that my shooting abilities aren't on par with "the best" -- and that's OK with me.

...

When I pay great sums of money to set down next to a known good shooter and compete on the same relay in the same conditions at a registered Match.... then and ONLY then can I be assured that I'm testing my abilities in the real world, There are enough "known good shooter" at unregistered matches for me to know that I'm not a top-level shooter.

...

"I don't think like you" As has been adequately documented on other threads, you're not the only one.

 

[Bill Gammon]

Years ago, when I shoot score, a lot of years ago, there used to be a guy who would win all of the time. And somebody, probally the match director, used to wonder, WHY? Probaly the person doing the scoring, of which that was me. And the wonder stop when the match director insisted that the targets would be picked up by another person that he hired for the job. I never saw this person again, it seems that this person would take a 30 cal bullet with him and push it in a target that was close. Now you know the rest of the story. DUH!!!! I will not shoot targets unless it is a register match. Did I win before, during, and after this insident, not really, and it was a lot of years ago. The ability to pick your own targets should tell you how long ago it was, and the ability to check your own targets, DUH!!!!!

 

[Pete Wass]

I mostly like

visiting old friends now but I rarely shoot "Club Matches". Just doesn't feel right to me somehow. I like the idea of shooting in a big organization that has a set of rules for everyone in that organization, period. I've never loved shooting just for the sake of shooting. Guns, to me, have always been a tool and that's it. Now, I haven't always agreed with the rules in the Orgs but I suppose others are like me as well but one makes the choice to either accept them or not shoot under them. @ 75, it's mostly about visiting with old friends now.

I was fortunate enough to win Score Shooter of the Year once in IBS HBR and I must say, it was the most hollow achievement I've ever experienced. I don't know if it's a lack of ego or what but the trophy sat on my coffee table for a year and exactly two people commented on it and neither asked any questions about it. I decided then that there had to be more to competing than winning something nobody had much appreciation for so I stopped going full bore at it. It's a lot more fun, for me, to just enjoy the trip, wherever it goes and the people on it with me.

Pete

 

[FBecigneul]

If one doesn’t want to win why does one go to a match, registered or not???? Why not go to the range when there isn’t a crowd? I can see after the match is over his saying I was just here to have fun but then for me that would be a lie. Why were tuners invented? Why mess around with an accurate powder measure if one doesn’t want to shoot better? Why not go preloaded with any old powder? Why not leave that old shot out barrel on that rifle for sentimental reasons? I never understood democratic attendance awards. Nope. I go to win, not win at all costs, mind you. I go to have fun and winning makes it more fun. I’m neither a bad loser or a bad winner. After the game is over we can all go home as friends.

 

[Pete Wass]

I realize

not everyone feels the way I do about this area in life. I've been involved in competitive sports since High School but I've never been a win at all costs person. If I win, fine but if I don't that's fine too. I have 97 IBS Agg patches so I haven't exactly not tried to win but I don't understand the mentality of winning at all costs. I also don't understand the concept of joy so that may be part of this.

Pete

 

[Hunter]

Francis, you’ve asked an interesting question. For me, winning is not particularly important; however, I do like to compare my results to: (a) those of other BR shooters who are shooting in much the same conditions as me, and (b) my past results (that were measured using the same measuring technique/tools as my current results).

I’m not looking for “democratic attendance awards” when I shoot, I just like to shoot -- and I’d rather shoot in a competitive environment than at “the range when there isn’t a crowd.” You know, I’d never have met you if I had not been at a match one day a few years ago.

As for the “winning makes it more fun” part, I’m not convinced that the additional fun of winning justifies the hassle involved in being focused on winning.

 

[FBecigneul]

I’m with you, Pete. You just say it better.