Understanding your competition benchrest rifle

S

scott mims

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if your rifle lets you shoot a good group, agg. ect. every now and then but never a grand agg. or 2 gun agg. good enough to win is it telling you its just not good enough to compete with the big boys? or is it the person behind the rifle not reading the conditions or keeping the rifle in tune enough to win.

I've seen the winners shooting the same rifle year after year BUT i also see some of the top dogs shooting new rifles when they still have the same rifles that was winning for them. why?

is it the complete rifle holding us back and that means we need to get a different rifle or does it still come down to when you get that good barrel it will make that so-so rifle look like the big boys rifle

will a bad rifle tease you enough to think its a winner?

.................. I guess I could keep putting the same question in different forms but hopefully you know what I'm trying to ask :)

the more i read it it is a little confusing sorry.......... last thing (i hope) could making a few changes, like changing trigger ect. make it alot better? maybe ALOT is not the right word but........

when is it time for the shooter to say to themselves.... "self lets go another route". money money money
 
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scott mims said:
if your rifle lets you shoot a good group, agg. ect. every now and then but never a grand agg. or 2 gun agg. good enough to win is it telling you its just not good enough to compete with the big boys? or is it the person behind the rifle not reading the conditions or keeping the rifle in tune enough to win.

I've seen the winners shooting the same rifle year after year BUT i also see some of the top dogs shooting new rifles when they still have the same rifles that was winning for them. why?

is it the complete rifle holding us back and that means we need to get a different rifle or does it still come down to when you get that good barrel it will make that so-so rifle look like the big boys rifle

will a bad rifle tease you enough to think its a winner?

.................. I guess I could keep putting the same question in different forms but hopefully you know what I'm trying to ask :)
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I think the answer still comes down to the same things...Great bullets, barrels, and tune. Without those things, you might be able to shoot your way into respectable finishes at some matches, but you simply won't win much against the people who have all three. Those are the elements that make this game less daunting. They won't fix everything else, but certainly make life much easier.
 
can we say some rifles are born shooters while others are not no matter bullets, barrels ect. or are they all shooters from birth and are limited to the barrels and bullets we put on and shoot through? and if thats the case (money no object lets pretend) building a new rifle when ever you want one will not make a difference it still will come down to what you use with that rifle..... correct/maybe? :)
 
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Scott

Not all rifles are shooters. Some are great, some are average and some just never shoot. If you have one of those rifles that won't agg at all it doesn't matter how good your bullets, barrels or powder are because there is no way to figure it out. Some rifles are lemons! Just ask Jackie Schmit.

Not to add to the confusion but a lot of rifles get a bad wrap because the scope is crap!

Bart
 
Bart said:
Scott

Not all rifles are shooters. Some are great, some are average and some just never shoot. If you have one of those rifles that won't agg at all it doesn't matter how good your bullets, barrels or powder are because there is no way to figure it out. Some rifles are lemons! Just ask Jackie Schmit.

Not to add to the confusion but a lot of rifles get a bad wrap because the scope is crap!

Bart
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I was shooting a rifle at home before the New Braunfels match last year. It just wasn't shooting well. Switched scopes and it started dotting up. It doesn't take much movement inside a scope to go from teen groups to 1/4" or larger.
 
There are at least a hundred things that that can cause flyers or poor accuracy, but if we had the instruments to unambiguously measure each of them, eventually we could make even a lemon rifle shoot. There are some things that are easy to test by swapping out parts, like scopes, barrels, triggers, and bullets. Tuning takes more effort, because the adjustments are not just one or the other (say, scope A or scope B), but have ranges (think powder charge, seating depth, neck tension, tuner position and position of the rifle in the bags). Finding the best combination is a multivariate optimization problem that is also weather-dependent. It is easy to find a combination that seems good, but is not the best. Beyond these are issues, such as bedding, firing pin drag, trigger timing and dynamic interactions of the whole system, that in some cases we don't have the means to measure their effects other than on target. For instance, shooting an entire match to see whether you have eliminated flyers that occur once every 10-20 shots is not a very efficient way of testing, especially considering that not recognizing wind switches can produce the same effects. Few have the time and patience to track down the hidden gremlins.

Happy new year to all,
Keith
 
I can't speak for the other groups in firearm competition but centerfire 100/200 Group, to win nowadays, you must go to the line with a perfect "package". A rifle capable of winning, a tune good enough to to win, AND, a mindset capable of beating the best. Leave any of that out and you, for sure, will not win!

I say "nowadays" because in the earlier days of what we call benchrest the shooters were trying to improve accuracy trying many different chamberings, barrel making methods, bullet structures, etc., now the variables are mostly eliminated. I look for, in 2016, for some "zero" aggs to appear. Will your equipment do that? Can you do that?
 
Understanding your rifle

There are no absolutes in this Sport. I doubt anybody will ever fully understand their Benchrest Rifle. Oh, Some will come closer than others to figuring it all out. There will be times, however, when the top shooters on the planet will not have all the answers. Its just the nature of the Sport.

Kinda like playing Golf......few people have ever figured it out.

The most viable source of information in understanding your rifle is what you see on the target. If you can explain all five record shots,you are closer to understanding BR. If you can’t,you’ve got your work cut out. Its all a part of competition.Some are better than others at understanding their rifles.




Glenn
 
My "breakthrough" came one club competition last year when I finally took my own advice, as posted on my front rest - W84it. That's Wait For It, and once I started doing that I did a lot better. "It" is the condition, and when I finally got that idea into my head, my 5-shot score target took closer to 5 or 6 minutes to complete than the previous ones where I was done in about 2 to 3 minutes. I stopped shooting when "it" looked "about right" and waited for it to be as identical as I could see. If you've ever shot at Austin Rifle Club, you know how "interesting" the winds can be, so waiting for "it" to come back around takes patience.

I also shoot a 6BR against all those 30BRs, so I'm giving up a bit in the scoring. I built my own rifle from Shilen action and barrel, McMillan Edge LV, Jewell trigger (now a B&A), and a Sightron 10-50 scope. I would hardly call it a world class setup, but it does the job when I do mine, and sometimes when I don't!

Dennis
 
Scott Mims won the 2 Gun..

I don't have his targets but I placed second and won this agg (see pictures :)). As I remember, Scott shot lights out and Brady Knight conned him into selling the barrel. Brady couldn't get the barrel to shoot at all!! It appears that Brady didn't have a rifle that was compatible with the barrel (read that again...between the lines)

I don't know why I'm including the photos but I found them trying to get ready to go to Riverbend to see if I can get a fellow interested in shooting benchrest. Pretty good targets for that time frame. That #5 target was the target where I pulled the trigger before the crosshair reached the aiming point.....if that hadn't happened I wouldn't have won the agg.
 

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I still like telling this story. that win was the 2003 Shamrock. I didn't change a thing all weekend. Wayne told me not to shoot that barrel and save it for the Super Shoot. The whole way up there that year I was asking Wilbur how much money does he think I will win up there. I mean I really was thinking I was going there and win the thing. Anyway let's say I didn't over 350plus shooters and I finished 103rd if I remember right. Oh well ??
 
Wilbur said:
I don't know why I'm including the photos but I found them trying to get ready to go to Riverbend to see if I can get a fellow interested in shooting benchrest. Pretty good targets for that time frame.
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I'm hoping that Wilbur will get so excited over those targets and trying to get someone else interested in shooting benchrest that his own interest in shooting benchrest will be revived. Maybe Matt Walker can arrange to save a bench for Wilbur at this year's Shamrock.

NOTE TO WILBUR, it might be best that you not let Brady know you're going to be at River Bend; he might accept the invitation he received from Jim Andress to be there and decide to go since you're going. I'm not sure the place is big enough for the two of you. :)
 
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Zdog said:
It seems everyone wants to stake out a niche that they think is THE one thing that is the key. But knowing several top IBS Score competitors, I have yet to hear one say anything about "trigger drag," or "timing" or a host of other issues. If they don't smith a rifle themselves, they have it built by a top gunsmith, using BR quality components and equipment, and then "get 'er done." Do problems show up? Sure. But they quickly identify and correct them and move on. Meanwhile the rest of pack chase their tails blaming their poor outings on a never-ending number of mechanical and/or technical issues. They're more focused on things that don't matter rather the ones that do.


Zdog (Chris Mitchell)
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Chris,
I agree with you more than not, but just for the sake of wintertime discussion let me defend the "rest of the pack." Paraphrasing Jackie Schmidt, the majority of rifles on the line are incapable of winning on a particular day. The shooters of those rifles are, and should be, focussed on finding the key issue or combination of issues that is limiting accuracy. (Well, maybe a few are there just to socialize and don't care how they do.) It takes luck to identify the problem quickly, and lots of hard work otherwise. Some times so much work that it is prudent to give up and trade rifles. I agree that we try lots of stuff that doesn't end up making any difference, but that is symptomatic of identifying the problem with no clues other than how the target looks. We are guessing and trying things, most of which are not the real answer, because that is the logical course of action given the lack of specificity of our diagnostic information. Kinda like a crying baby - you don't know if it's sick, injured, hungry or just constipated.:p

Cheers,
Keith
 
It is absolutely "AMAZING" that when a rifle is shooting bad, that it is "NEVER" the shooter, it is always the rifle. Well I had what's his name build the rifle and he told me what load to use, and it is not doing what it is suppose to do, or the best one, somebody is screwing with my rifle and it is their fault, or the rifle must be screwed. How many times I have heard that? It "NEVER" comes from the month of the so-called pros, the Tony's the James, and the Jackie's, ( I know it is hard to believe Jackie, but I just paid you a compliment). I think I had better stop there or Wilbur will ban me, EH!!!!!
 
I have a 3 lug that hasn't ever shot as well as another rifle I have. It has been the same with several different barrels. I can re chamber the same barrel put it on the other gun and it shoots well.
I have been bound and determined I was going to figure out why. I've finally got it shooting better than it has but I can't say it was any one thing.
I opened up some clearance around the cooking piece drilled out the back of the cocking shroud didn't see a big improvement but some. Changed the scope didn't see anything. Went to a different lot of bullets it seems to do a little better with. Changed the trigger a little difference.
So it will shoot a teen group now and then that it wouldn't before at all. It will agg. in the low .2s instead of the high. 2s. All I know to do is keep after it. The frustration of it is the Hall will just drill one after the other without much fuss. Can't figure out what is so different between them
 
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Understanding your BR Rifle

Sorta like understanding your Wife. One day you're in the PentHouse. Next day you're in the schitt house. If you don't figure it out soon,you could end up in your Mama's house.:D


Glenn
 
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