Thoughts on Benchrest Competition

James M.

James M.

New member
Although it may seem like an easy thing to do...i.e. shoot small groups from a solid rest, it is not quite like it appears. The first thing one must realize is that shooting an occasional 3-shot group that measures in the 1's is not what is required. What is required is well documented in several books, notably those written by HOF shooters Mike Ratigan and Tony Boyer. For those who haven't read those books let me provide a few insights garnered from them...... 1) From Tony's book , one must have the DESIRE to shoot at a high level of competition and devote himself to that end. 2) When starting out, try to find a GOOD mentor, that is, someone who is an accomplished shooter to help with the learning curve. 3) Have the resources to buy the equipment necessary to compete. (One can still enjoy shooting without great riches, but as the late Mickey Coleman stated, " One has to spend the money in order to compete.") 4) Learn from your experiences and don't expect to have immediate success. 5) Shoot as many matches as possible because as Lester Bruno told me, one match experience is worth many, many hours of practice at home.

Why are there not more shooters at BR matches? Well, this is a hard, expensive game and many don't have the temperament to learn the proper way to approach it. If you love competition and are willing to learn and improve, you can enjoy BR. I started shooting in February, 1997 at the old Hub City Range in Lafayette, LA. I have now curtailed most of my travelling to matches because of health reasons. Also, I am retired and live on a fixed income and don't need to spend too much on my hobbies.

Let me say that although my successes have been very limited, I don't regret a minute that I spent shooting Benchrest. I have met many of the Icons of Benchrest and would not trade those memories for anything. Many have passed away and I often think of what they contributed to this sport. I think of Skip Otto, Alvin Davidson, Jef Fowler, Ed Watson, Myles Hollister, Jerry Simison, Mike Walker, and many others. I was privileged to know each of these men and thank them to their contributions to our sport.

So if you have the desire to shoot small groups in the competitive arena, jump in....the water is fine. If you want to shoot at the local matches or at the Super Shoot, give it a try and you will hopefully enjoy it as much as I have. Good shooting............James Mock
 
Great post James. You are a great asset to this sport, as a competitor and as a writer.

Later
Dave
 
Thoughts on Benchrest competition

Nice post James
More rambling thoughts I've heard that before in fact a lot more opinions that i would sometimes like to forget.
Its been written about for years .
Magazine article have been asking the same question in Precision shooting, and others ,
When asked to give information on how to improve the sport people give the information from what they have seen in matches.
Here's some of the advice given over the years
1 you need the best equipment Start right buy the best { at time Opinon,s Best{ changes from year to year.
2 Buy the new and latest equipment you can afford, { keeps the gunsmiths and suppliers working }
3 Voice your opinion and change the rules yearly

What they don't talk about
1 Classifications in group shooting {keeps people in the game and rewards shooters with some recognition.
2 actually promote the sport of group shooting { instead of leaving it up to the clubs { let the clubs vote on issues at the meetings}
3 Allow for a new shooter to make a mistake now and then until he becomes adjusted to the rules.{ cross fire or shooting after the cease fire commands On regular time limits not a disqualify.
Lets face it sometimes we all make mess up a simple addition to the groups would be enough penalty
 
Thanks Gerry and Dave. I have received much more than I have contributed and have friends like Dave in many places across the US. Gerry, I have thought about classifications for different levels of shooters, but I am not sure how it could be implemented. We certainly don't want "sand bagging" in order to win trophies, but we also don't want to discourage the beginning shooter by having him/her finish last or next to last in every match. Some of our best shooters have had success very early in their BR participation. Others have persevered for years before becoming proficient. One HOF member told me that he shot for 16 years before becoming "competitive". Maybe we can start a thread to get ideas to help the inexperienced shooters stay in our sport long enough to have some success. Good shooting...James
 
Thoughts on Benchrest competition

I'm glad you read my post about classifications.
all new shooters shoot in the novice class for 2 years. after that they shoot in the next class until they show some kind of agg . '

Usually shooters will try their hardest to get into the next class . If they sand bad a committee can move them up to a higher class at any time;
The prizes don't have to be much a simple plaque would do. I believe it would be a good way to keep the shooters in the game.


With all of the changes in scopes rifles ammo components etc It would be wise to show a little recognition to the new shooters.
That said one other thing comes to mind , new shooter a while back quit shooting Benchrest, His reason was this.


Here,s the story: This person had anew Borden rig made up bought all of the good equipment {top shelf ammo and all components , rest bags etc etc
The shooter went to a big match and did very well took a bit of change away from a few big boys, The next time he went to shoot the big boys cold shouldered him.
The fellow got so ticked off he sold all of his equipment at a fraction of the price just to get rid of it. Im sure you have seen this yourself.

A few people just want to play in a small field and keep it that way. bad attitued's
 
Ubr?

UBR seems to be a step in the right direction, not perfect, but an attempt to do away with needing a particular cartridge to be competitive, or at least not at a disadvantage regard bullet diameter. You can pull out a 6PPC and not be at a disadvantage while shooting score. As of yet, I have not attended any of their matches, but will try to get to one this year.
 
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GerryM said:
I'm glad you read my post about classifications.
all new shooters shoot in the novice class for 2 years. after that they shoot in the next class until they show some kind of agg . '

Usually shooters will try their hardest to get into the next class . If they sand bad a committee can move them up to a higher class at any time;
The prizes don't have to be much a simple plaque would do. I believe it would be a good way to keep the shooters in the game.


With all of the changes in scopes rifles ammo components etc It would be wise to show a little recognition to the new shooters.
That said one other thing comes to mind , new shooter a while back quit shooting Benchrest, His reason was this.


Here,s the story: This person had anew Borden rig made up bought all of the good equipment {top shelf ammo and all components , rest bags etc etc
The shooter went to a big match and did very well took a bit of change away from a few big boys, The next time he went to shoot the big boys cold shouldered him.
The fellow got so ticked off he sold all of his equipment at a fraction of the price just to get rid of it. Im sure you have seen this yourself.

A few people just want to play in a small field and keep it that way. bad attitued's
Click to expand...


Ive been doing this for 20yrs and ive yet to see a cold shoulder. What i have seen is new guys do real good at first then show up as a badass and get their clock cleaned THEN sell off everything. If it went that way at any match ive been to the "big boys" step in to help if the guy isnt "too good" by then.
 
After my second season of shooting and only making 4 matches each year at the regional level. Along with putting in a lot of work at my home range.
I have enjoyed the game immensely. I have no illusions I fully understand the difficulty of the sport.
An idea of the time and resources that must be committed to even have some success just at the regional level has to be understood.
I have to say the (big boys) a few in particular have went out of their way to help me.
New guys need to understand at a match everyone is there to compete and Win! Not the best time for questions. Meet some guys Friday practicing get to know them some. Leave the questions for the appropriate time. Experienced mentors are few and far between. It takes time and work to gain even a small improvement.
For the guys that may think buying all the best will bring them rapid or immediate success will have a rude awakening for sure.
If they're to thin skinned or don't have the patients or not willing or don't have the time to commit to doing the work, then maybe they sell out. Idk
 
+! on what Dusty and Tim stated. At my first match, I had a pretty good showing and even shot a "screamer group". My next match was the Crawfish of 1997 at Lafayette. This match had about 115 shooters and as a beginner I was overwhelmed. I remember three men who gave their time to help me "survive". Mr. Ed Watson shot next to me and he was more than willing to share his knowledge about equipment, etc. Francis Broussard also gave much support and remains a great friend today. Dr. Maretzo told me that I needed to shoot bullets that were capable of winning and he gave me enough of Myles Hollister's 68 grain bullets to finish the match. I contacted Myles after that and ordered some of his great bullets.

These icons of Br did not have to help a newbie like me, but they did. I have not seen the "cold shoulder" that has been mentioned, but I can imagine that it does happen in isolated cases. If we are not tough enough to withstand these isolated cases, maybe we should not try Benchrest shooting.
Good shooting...James
 
Thoughts on Benchrest competition

Still wondering why this person went back to shoot at quantico.
That's where he started and became a shooter He was not inexperienced.
He did mention His mentor, a very well know gunsmith.

That said I have seen some very snubby people but they never snubbed me for some reason.
Maybe because I'm not a threat to their ego. Most have been friendly to me.

I believe the story, some people are rude at times specially during competition.
Maybe the problems are attitude.

Remember the posts about the world games?
It's just some people,s attitudes.
 
Tim Singleton said:
New guys need to understand at a match everyone is there to compete and Win!.
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Tim, I don't agree that "everyone is there to ... Win"; I think a lot of shooters are there to enjoy shooting, see and visit with the people, and see how they do compared to others -- but, not necessarily to "Win."
 
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Hunter said:
Tim, I don't agree that "everyone is there to ... Win"; I think a lot of shooters are there to enjoy shooting, see and visit with the people, and see how they do compared to others -- but, not necessarily to "Win."
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I agree Bill. Everyone wasn't the right choice of words. I was thinking in terms of someone feeling snubbed by the (big boys)
 
No, a winner is there to win. Ask bart sauter if he likes socializing or winning. The bottom of the list are the people that go to socialize. The winners win for a reason and have their game down good enough to socialize at the same time. Next time you see a hall of famer running mid pack start noticing how much socializing they do during a match. Youll see what i mean at that point.
 
Classification

This is a most interesting thread James. Especially, to me, since the subject of classification has been mentioned.

Over the years I have shot probably more than my part. I started competition shooting Bullseye pistol-Army AMU. Later I shot NRA/2700 Bullseye pistol, still have the equipment-just in case. They had a classification system.

Then I went to IHMSA Big Bore Handgun silhouette for about 8 years. Still have the equipment-just in case. They had a classification system.

Then ATA Registered Trap came along for about 10 years. Still have one trap gun and 4 progressive reloaders-just in case. They had a classification system, quite elaborate.

Then about the same time James started this silly game I did too. So far this game has been the most expensive, the most time consuming, but the most challenging and enjoyable. Of the benchrest this Centerfire Short Range Group shooting is the best for me even though I shoot some IR 50/50, ARA and PSL rimfire.

All these shooting games have had some sort of classification system but our benchrest game. How to try to do that I don't know but I believe it would increase activity in this sport.

The best classification system I ever shot in was ATA Trap. But, at their nationals the Grand American Trapshoot there would be some 20,000 entries. That figures out to be about 800 shooters. At the Grand they had 100 trap fields going all the time with 5 shooters per field. This would allow them run through 500 shooters each event. The ATA has 3 divisions, 16 yard, handicap, and doubles and they even have separate classifications in each division. and on handicap they had A<B<C<D as well as different yardages.

If centerfire short range group benchrest had some type classification it might stir up more interest, IMO.


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Here in Arizona we have Unique set-up. Since Berger Bullet has taken over the matches we have an Iron Man Award. We have 8 matches a year including the Cactus. You get 7 of the best 2 Gun Aggs for a Grand Agg score. Division 1- Hall of famers,,Division2- the general shooters, Division 3- the Juniors.
The winners get Trophy's and a GENEROUS Gift certificate From Berger.
 
To me one of the positive things about bench rest competition is no classes. When you win, you have beaten everyone else, not some subset of the other shooters. Additionally, group benchrest does not have enough shooters for an effective class system. That being said, having a novice class might help encourage new shooters.

I am relatively new to benchrest having just completed my 5th year, however my opinion is based on 40 plus years of competition in the shotgun sports (trap, sporting clays and live pigeons).
 
Thoughts on Benchrest competition

Yes and the attendance gets small and smaller.

Making problems for clubs to brake even on the events. Less shooters Less to beat.

Less matches by clubs

Helps keep new shooters from Trying the Game,s
 
Dean Ekstrom said:
To me one of the positive things about bench rest competition is no classes. When you win, you have beaten everyone else, not some subset of the other shooters. Additionally, group benchrest does not have enough shooters for an effective class system. That being said, having a novice class might help encourage new shooters.

I am relatively new to benchrest having just completed my 5th year, however my opinion is based on 40 plus years of competition in the shotgun sports (trap, sporting clays and live pigeons).
Click to expand...

I have to agree. Winning a yardage with some of the best in the world there. Couldn't compare to anything else
 
Match attendance / new shooters...

I started shooting Hunter Class late in 1968, and all of 1969. I didn't even own a rifle until I was 26 years old! (I didn't think I needed one, and if I had one, I wouldn't know what to do with it. LOL)
My brother talked me into going deer hunting with him and a group of his friends that I knew, and the rest is history.
In 1968, Central Hardware had Mossburg 308 bolt action rifles and Winchester 30-30 lever action rifles on sale, take your pick, $68.00! (That will give you a clue how long ago that was.)
I worked with Jerry Glaus, who was the President of the Bench Rest Rifle Club of St. Louis and shot Hunter Class and group matches. I'm sure 95% of those reading this will not know who that is, but he became my mentor, and while I thought the 30-30 was cool, he talked me into the 308, and told me after deer season, we could bed it and tune it up to shoot Hunter Class.
Back then, Hunter Class did have classes. 250 points was the highest possible score, (3 targets at 100, 2 targets at 200.) Any score 200 and under put you in the Novice Class, 201 to 232 was the Hunter Class, and 233 and over was considered the Master class. Master Class rifles could have Custom Stainless Steel barrels, 2 oz. triggers , laminated wood stocks, etc. (Fiberglass stocks were not even available yet.) There were only 4-5 Shooters that had "Custom" rifles. Art Freund did most of the custom work in the St. Louis area, and he and a few shooters with "Deeper pockets" had Custom rifles, but the rest of us had off-the-shelf rifles. The "Old range" had 18 benches, and I can remember that we would be 1-2 shooters short of 2 FULL RELAYS! 34-35 shooter on a Sunday morning was a common event! 80+% of the shooters were in the Hunter class, and a score of 225-230 was considered great! Even the Custom guns would shoot in the 240-245 range, and I can't remember anyone ever shooting a perfect 250!
Most, (about 80%) of the Hunter shooter went on to get Group rifles, and thats what I did too. I bought a used 40x 222/35 HV rifle in about 1971.
Most people that have been to the range in St. Louis would say it is one of the best, if not The Best, ranges in the Country today. We, like a lot of Clubs, struggle every year with match attendance. We keep asking ourselves, what can we do to improve attendance?
Bench Rest shooting is a tough game, you have to love doing it, and it goes without saying, to play with the "Big Boys", you have to spend not only the money to have the good equipment, you have to be willing to practice, practice, practice. IF the time you spend practicing is a chore, then maybe you have chosen the wrong game. Keeping a gun "in-tune" is not an easy chore. You just can't shoot a .150" group and put the gun away and expect it to come back out of the box on match day and agg. .150!
There are barrels, and then there are BARRELS! There are bullets, and then there are BULLETS!
All barrels are different, and part of the enjoyment, at least for me, is finding the right combination.
Competition is when you are in your 7 minutes, and making decisions on every shot. Rarely can you just hold in the same place and pull the trigger.
While shooting groups, EVERY time you pull the trigger, you should have mentally asked yourself, "more or less" and held accordingly. If you enjoy that part of the game, Bench Rest shooting is for you! If on the other hand, you don't like that part of the game, you probably won't find Bench Rest shooting as rewarding as it could be. That's just the way it is, and there isn't much anyone can do to make you want to spend your weekend shooting groups. I wish it was easier than that, but I'm afraid that's just the way it is. You either Like/Love that part of the game or you don't.
We have about 1300 members, and I would guess that only 20 or less have the drive to shoot Bench Rest. From the people I talk to, that seems to be about the same number Nation wide. I don't believe "Classes" would help at all, in fact, it might even hurt. It's like the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
 
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