This one was

D

David Halblom

Flying Fish Fundamentals
first written in the other BR forum. Forgive me for just copying it here. but as I closed it before, if you are going to "flame" me....You had better be wearing Nomex.

QUOTE=mks;528385]Mike,
I agree. That's one of the things I think is "broken" in IBS score. 24 of your shots could be better than the winner's shots, but if one misses the 10 ring, you are relegated to the "also ran" pack. Losing a match based on 24 winning shots and one losing shot doesn't make sense to me. A smaller 10 ring, or scoring worst edge, could provide the added resolution to show that your 24 shots were better - it would be reflected in your score and you would likely win the match, as you deserve to.

I see that 38 of the 57(?) places at VFS 100 yards at the IBS nationals were determined by Creedmoor - yet another reason to use more of the scoring scale, not just the upper end. Let the shooters win by shooting higher scores, not by drawing straws.

I hope NBRSA starts their score program with more difficult targets and scoring that does not favor one size bullet over another. It would be interesting to see which system eventually attracted the most shooters.

Cheers,
Keith[/QUOTE]

because I had a lot of more important issues to deal w/ than the ridiculous directions this thread has gone. Now that I am done running the IBS Score Nationals, and before I go to the NBRSA Group Nationals, as well as the BOD meeting, I AM GOING to wade into this issue.

Score shooting is ABOUT hitting a VERY defined point in space 5 TIMES. It is about resetting your rifle's point of aim FIVE times for score. It is NOT about making 5 shots that are VERY close to one another. That is GROUP shooting.

As to dropping a point and being out of the running, ask Greg Swezey if he gave up after he dropped his first point either at the NBRSA Nationals or the IBS Nationals. If so, he would NOT be the Hunter Champion of BOTH organizations. And THAT IS an Honor that ONLY ONE other person has been able to achieve in 1 year, Jim Engle. And only 1 other person has ever done it, Wayne Corley, in 2 different years.

Now as to the 250-25x issue, Come on out an try it. there have only been 17 or so 250-25's shot and verified in competition so far. Since 1982, when VFS was instituted in the IBS. And as for this year, in over 100 registered matches, there have only been 2, yes 2, shot this year. So, those who think 250-25 is a "regular" occurence, come on out and prove your mettle.

Wilbur, this one may push the limits

Those of you who shoot score on a regular basis know what the reality is. Those who are "keyboard shooters", go pick on the 1000 yard or 600 yard shooters. And group shooters, PLEASE come out to a score match and shoot it under competition conditions before you gewt on your high-horse and pontificate as to what should be happenning. Until you have experience in the game, you have no idea of the reality of what happens. ANd 10 year old experience is NOT applicable in today's game. If you have not shot a score match, HBR, VH, or VFS in the last 10 years, you have NO idea of the level of competition that is present today!

Flame on. You had better be wearing Nomex!
 
"Keyboard Shooters"

Well, that is a great phrase. Score is a tough game, and anyone who sits behind the keyboard criticizing it, should walk in the shoes of the people that shoot it.

While I personally feel there should be a more even level of playing field with respect to caliber, Score is a great competition. All that was said above is true. You accept the fact before the first shot, there are no free shots, or chasing shots. Every shot is as important as all the rest.

I can't count the times I've driven home cussing myself for that ONE shot! But, that is the game. Somebody didn't screw up one shot and won. Why couldn't that have been me?
 
Wayne Shaw said:
Well, that is a great phrase. Score is a tough game, and anyone who sits behind the keyboard criticizing it, should walk in the shoes of the people that shoot it.

While I personally feel there should be a more even level of playing field with respect to caliber, Score is a great competition. All that was said above is true. You accept the fact before the first shot, there are no free shots, or chasing shots. Every shot is as important as all the rest.

I can't count the times I've driven home cussing myself for that ONE shot! But, that is the game. Somebody didn't screw up one shot and won. Why couldn't that have been me?
Click to expand...

It can be! Isn't that why we play?
 
Sure, of course it is. I've had my share of success, and my share of failure too. I accept that going in.
 
This is from "general" BR forum

"Worth repeating: the ten-ring is quite ample - shame on anyone for missing it - regardless of how many Xes are compiled it's sudden death. We know THAT! RG"

Score shooting is NOT the same as group shooting. Never has been, never will be. Group is about putting 5 shots in the same hole somewhere in space, within a defined large box. Score shooting is about putting 5 individual shots in 5 very defined points in space, that are relatively damn small and very widely separated by distance. Both disciplines are at a level of expertise and equipment that require a high degree of skill, most of them are on par, only different in application. No score shooter need take umberance from group shooters.

I am getting lazy. I will only type these once and then copy and paste

David
 
I'm against NBRSA score shooting

As an NBRSA member and group shooter, I have nothing against score shooting. I don't think it's easier or harder, it's different. However, I am against the NBRSA adopting score shooting, as I believe that it will cause the eventual elimination of group shooting at the smaller ranges. Given the choice, I think most ranges will elect to move to score shooting due to the amount of work and equipment involved in putting on a group match.

If anyone wants to shoot score, there are plenty of score shoots. That's mainly all the IBS hosts now since the adoption of varmint for score. Look at what has happened to IBS group shooting. If you don't count the IBS 100-200yard nationals and the Long Range nationals, how many group shoots are on the IBS schedule?

Jim Carstensen
 
I just have a questin. If NBRSA picks up score shooting, then what is the problem with the NBRSA using a different target....easier or harder???? It's the NBRSA not the IBS. I don't think the issue is as much about the the difficulty of the target as much as whether or not the NBRSA should or should not have a different target. To me, I don't care...I just like to shoot...but the question I want to ask is "Why shouldn't the NBRSA develope or use a different target?" If they decide to...that's ok with me...if not...that's ok with me. But if people with more experience than I say that they want to use a new target to avoid possible future problems...ok. I will say that I have never liked the Creedmore method but that's just me but I'm sure that I will never really have to worry about that...:D...I just try and stay off the bottom of the page.

Hovis
 
Jim - aside from the two (2) Nationals there are eight (8) additional IBS group matches. Six of those are in NY-PA only which is pretty good when you consider the NBRSA Southeast Region has nine shoots over a much longer season over a vastly larger area. (I did NOT count the registered winter matches at Dunham's Bay, NY).

Sometimes the IBS Group program seems smaller since the IBS Score shooting discipline has grown in terms of shoots and additional ranges across the country.

Jeff
 
Sudden death (again)

David Halblom said:
As to dropping a point and being out of the running, ask Greg Swezey if he gave up after he dropped his first point either at the NBRSA Nationals or the IBS Nationals.
Click to expand...

David,
I think Charles is right, this issue is ready for a rest. I apologize to all who are tired it, but I can't help responding to this point.

HBR is a good example of the reduction in the "sudden death" factor when scores are lower. Difficulty is added in HBR by the narrower stock, larger cartridge and lower power scope. As a result, Greg, the winner at 200 yards, dropped 4 points and Creedmoor tie-breakers were required for only 10 of 37 shooters. Compare this to VFS at 100 yards, where 32 of 58 shooters hit 250 and 38 where involved in Creedmoor. Or to put it another way, in HBR 200 Tim Henderson fell to only 4th place by dropping one point more than Greg, but in VFS 100 James Lederer fell to 33rd place by dropping one point. After dropping a point, Tim still had a fighting chance, but James didn't. A more difficult target for VFS could change the situation.

Cheers,
Keith
 
I fell victim to the lost shot curse.

At 200 yds. in VFS at the IBS nats. I shot 16 Xs, but missed the 10 ring twice. For anyone who does not think this is a test of rifle accuracy and shooting skill, consider how hard it is to hit a 1/8 in. dot at 200 yds. in a switching wind 16 times out of a possible 25. This is not to brag, but it is to make anyone who thinks score shooting is a piece of cake think a little bit about the degree of dificulty involved.

I shoot group just as much as I shoot score, and I can testify that both diciplines have serious degrees of difficulty.

When I go to a score match, I know ahead of time that I have to hit the 10 ring or I'm out of it. Same rules for everyone though. It's fun, I love it.


Speaking of NBRSA VFS shooting; I feel that any time you can get someone to shoot from a bench at anything in an organized fashion, you have the potential of advancing that person into the next degree of dificulty. For me the highest level of dificulty, but with the highest potential rewards is group shooting. The way I got started though was by going to a score match. Those who fear the loss of group shooting should look at the losses that have been taking place recently. We have lost a lot of people! If score shooting will bring back some people or get some new people started in the sport, then it should be promoted. If a competator has a burning competative spirit or a desire to get into the Hall of Fame, he will then advance to group shooting, just as I and many others have.

Respectfully submitted,
Larry Feusse
 
Now let me see....

So some may complain of the match lost because of that "9" shot on the last match after heading for the 250 and ending up with a 249/24X. Well....how about the group shooter with that run with constant .129 or less groups and missing that one condition which puts your last shot out at .500. What happens? Probably from first place to 25th.

Same reasoning...same bitter disappointment.:(

virg
 
Several years ago

there was talk about a Score Hall of Fame but I haven't heard anything said about it in quite a long time. I am anbivilent about the whole Hall of Fame thing, I must say. Considering I have nearly 90 Agg patches and perhape 1.5 Precisision Rifleman points gives me cause to ponder some of these things.
 
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