The action.....it's cured!!!!!!!!!!

jackie schmidt

New member
For those of you who have been following my on going saga with my new Rifle's sticky bolt problem, let me say that I have finally cured the problem.

As a review, I bought the Bat Chrome Moly 2-Lug R-L right eject already glued into a nice Bob Scarborough Stock at last years Nationals.

I discovered a few problems that, as a Machinist, I was able to correct these.

The one thing that I could not get a handle on was the stiff bolt lift. The main reason I wanted this action was I needed to finally go to an ejector Rifle in order to take advantage of being able to shoot fast when the opportunity presented its self.

The stiff bolt lift, even with what we consider medium loads,was aggravating to the point that having the ejector was usless.

I have been soliciting advise from others, and it seems that I am not alone. Quite a few shooters seem to be experiencing the very same problem.

Many ideas as to what could be causing the problem were presented.

I finally took a drastic step. I talked to Cecil Tucker about two weeks ago, and he told me he had the exact same problem with the same action. He finally lapped the bolt in the action, (aggresivly), and not only did it cure the sticky bolt, the Rifle shot better.

A couple of days ago I got 3 different grit levels of lapping compound. I started with 800, went to 600, then to 300. The reason you have to start light is there is so little clearance in this particular action, you can't start with anything coarser. You have to work in in in progressive steps.

It took me about 2 1/2 hours worth of lapping, but I finally worked it out to where the bolt has a little over .001 more clearance than before. I would apply the lapping compound, work the bolt back and forth untill it would close, then work the bolt handle up and down. In other words, I was lapping everything, bolt body, luggs, lead ramps, anything that touched.

And guess what. The bolt lift after each shot is now like any of my other actions. Even with the 30.5 grn load, (133), it comes up easy. And, considering some of the excellent groups I shot today, the Rifle shoots better.

What do you think I cured?? Cecil told me that he thinks Bat simply makes the bolts too tight in the action way, land the thing just binds up when fired. I honestly do not know. But what ever, lapping some clearance into the bolt to action fit cured what has been a source of aggravation.

I guess the really big question would be, "should one have to do this sort of thing in the first place on a state of the art Benchrest Action?? I am sure that the answer from many would be, "you should not be shooting in a load window where this sort of thing happens". Well, I have a two Farleys and two Stiller Diamondbacks that have never had this sort of problem. And shooting in the upper load window has more or less become the norm with todays powder-bullet-barrel combos.

I guess when it's all said and done, I am glad that the Rifle is performing as I think it should........jackie
 
Ditto. I thought that a nitride bath might do the trick. I didn't have much luck with the lapping with JB thing as directed by BAT. I thought that the JB might not be aggressive enough, but couldn't imagine possibly ruining my action with lapping compound.
I was/am looking to buy an action with this issue in mind. I started a thread elsewhere trying to get opinions on Farley vs BAT. Crickets, after two days and 300 views so I pulled it.

So, is the CM better than SS for this issue in your opinion? Or do they both require the same amount of attention?

Jim
 
There is one other explanation that would fall perfectly in line with your experience Jackie. Those dual port actions can be rather limp (as in not stiff). I had a 3 lug that would bind when I put the screw in the rear of the action to hold the trigger guard in place. This was on a gun that was glued in ("By one of the best"). When I removed the screw the action worked perfectly. I rebedded the action and it worked flawlessly. I was AMAZED how LITTLE force it took to bend the action. You (MAY) have just given the action enough clearance to work properly even though it may be tweaked slightly in the bedding.

Hey it works now. Thats great. I just mentioned this because in my personal experience the action itself wasn't the culprit and that may very well be the case for many others out there that are having this problem.

I ordered an 1.550 bat SB. That little sucker is STIFF. Doesn't weigh that much either.
 
Jim

You could lap with JB for a month and never make any difference. Heck, even the people who make JB say it does not remove any measurable amount of material. The fix I performed requires good old lapping compound.

Russ. This assembly uses no action screws to hold the trigger guard. Bob incorporates two aluminum pieces bedded into the stock that are tapped for screws that hold the trigger guarde in place......jackie
 
I tried playing with or tuning the gun with the action screws. That had zero effect, which I guess is a good thing. I think that means there is no bend in the action?
Russ, that is a interesting find you made. Makes sense. I wish thats what it is.
jackie, ss or cm, any difference?
 
Glad to hear that you solved your problem. What do you think the bolt fit was before and after? If this happens to anyone else, it would be interesting to cover the bolt with layout blue, fire some hot loads, and see if there was a particular area that was binding.
 
straight and square??

Jackie,

Ever take it out of the stock?

Sure seems like something was not straight or square and you trued it or just gave it room to move were it needed to.
 
Mark

This action was glued in by the Stock Maker. I feel that it would be impossible to place a alloy steel action in some sort of bind by simply laying it in a bed of glue. Keep in mind, there are no bolts or other old down devises involved.

Besides, I have all faith that Bob Scarborough knows exactly how to do this, since it is a requirement of his, (and other top end stock makers), to perform the action installation in the stock...........jackie
 
Jackie

Sorry didn't mean to imply improper bedding. I know you have a lot of eq and thought you may have popped it out to check it real close
 
Good for you Jackie

Jackie, glad to hear you got your action working and shooting well. I have never owned a BAT but I have long admired their quality and workmanship. We benchresters naturally want things to fit precisely and work flawlessly but sometimes we go too far and don't provide enough clearance where it is needed. Lapping obviously works but I wonder if the same thing could not be accomplished by polishing the bolt body with crocus cloth in the lathe? I've always been afraid of lapping compound for fear it will migrate into areas that I don't want to touch, and I also don't like the rough frosty finish it leaves. Maybe I just don't know how to do it properly; huh? :eek:

Was good to see you in New Braunfels.

Gene Beggs
 
Gene

I lapped it because I did indeed want every place that there was metal to metal contact to be influenced.

This is not an easy task. Just getting the bolt into the action with the lapping compound is no easy chore. That is the reason you start witha very fine compound.

You are correct, the bolt now has a rather ugly frosted look. But I can live with that.

By the way, thanks for hooking me up with Cecil. His cure was the "cure".......jackie
 
I guess the really big question would be, "should one have to do this sort of thing in the first place on a state of the art Benchrest Action??

In a word, no. But it seems there are several mod's that people are doing on those actions that are already more expensive than most of the others.

Glad you got your's figured out though. Nothing is more frustrating than an action that's "state of the art" but is acting more like "state of the fart".
 
This is a great read. I am also experiencing this same sort of problem. My action is a BAT SV glued into a robertson stock by Tom Meredith. I am loading around 28.8gr N133 and after i fire the rifle the bolt feels gritty all the way up. So much in fact that it moves the rifle way to much in my bags. I am spending way to much time getting the rifle back on point of aim. I am having to put a lot of down pressure on the action to lift the bolt. My brass is new to this chamber, so i dont think thats an issue. I tried some loads in the 27gr area, and it felt a bit better, so i am not so sure i have the same issue. Maybe the chamber is to blame? I wouldnt know. I do know, that it is very frustrating. Most of the time the rifle shoots small groups, but then there are times it doesnt. Maybe i do have some metal rubbing together in the wrong way? Again I just dont know!
I am also noticing that the bolt closes fairly stiff on an empty chamber. The first bit of free movement of the bolt on the way down is easy, but then there is some definite resistance for the remainder of the down bolt travel. does that sound like anything? I have this same action in my other ppc and the bolt down movement is very nice and smooth. On this green gun i am having the issue with, it just feels tight on the way down with the bolt. Can anyone give me some advise? I wanted to ask about this a couple weeks ago, but sometimes i feel like i worry about to much, so i didnt mention it, but after reading this i truly feel like there might be an issue. I didnt have this barrel fitted to this action, as i purchased it from Mr Hoene the last time i was in St Louis. I dont think that has anything to do with it though. Bottom line is that my bolt feels gritty and stiff after firing and it also feel like there is some resistance i have to overcome when closing the bolt even on an empty chamber. Thanks for the read, I for one really appreciated it! Lee


I wouldnt trust myself enough to lap this bolt. Is there anything else i could try, or better yet, who could i have look at this issue?

I also wanted to add that the bolt is smooth on the way down on an empty chamber its just that there is a resistance i have to overcome to get the bolt started on the way down. My other BAT Sv doesnt feel that way. Its just smooth all the way down. I hope that makes since, and that may not even matter. I just wanted to mention it. Lee
 
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A friend of mine built what looks like a barrel stub, it's used when lapping bolts in place. What is inside this barrel stub is a spring and a plunger that places presure on the bolt face so that there is rearward pressure when lapping. It looked like a real sweet set up for lapping bolt lugs on remingtons.. I never dreamed it would be needed on the BAT.
 
A friend of mine built what looks like a barrel stub, it's used when lapping bolts in place. What is inside this barrel stub is a spring and a plunger that places presure on the bolt face so that there is rearward pressure when lapping. It looked like a real sweet set up for lapping bolt lugs on remingtons.. I never dreamed it would be needed on the BAT.

Thats a good way to lap a taper into your lugs. I've seen this quite frequently when truing Remingtons. Someone will have lapped the lugs in with spring pressure. You'll start making truing cuts on the receiver lugs and you'll see the lugs start to clean up on one side. After ever thousandth of a cut, you'll see more and more of the lugs clean up until they finally clean up across the lugs. If you barrel it without cleaning up the tapered lug, then the farther the bolt is closed the tighter the headspace gets.
 
Lee

Sounds to me like the front of the bolt lugs might be contacting the breech of the barrel. A little dye on the front of the lugs will tell the story.

Daryl
 
i already thought of that so i un screwed the barrel a bit and it still feels the same. anything else you fellas can think of? i apprecite it! lee
 
It´s the trigger hanger. I´ll bet that you have turned it the wrong way... Mine came with a "0-30" hanger. "30" forward meens that you place the trigger 30 thousands furter back in the action compared to the "0" forward. You should have the trigger as far back as you can, without cooking the fireing pin upon closing if the action (thats what you are feeling now).

Easy check is to just remove the trigger from the action and close the bolt. If the bolt closes easily, you know what the problem is. If is still closes with resistace, you have som serius problems;)
 
Its the trigger hanger. A good friend here has talked me through most of this. I do however feel like there might be some dragging on the firing pin, and here is why. After i pull the trigger on an empty chamber, i can feel a little gritty feeling resistance while re-cocking the pin. Maybe the cocking piece is rubbing the shroud a bit? I have it lubed properly, so maybe it is in the spring, or threads somewhere. heck i dont know. I may just have it looked at so i can put this behind me. The rifle shoots pretty good most days, but just the other day it looked like a shotgun. The wind wasnt blowing all that much and the load should have been ok! I do have the #30 hanger in the rifle and the 30 is towards the front. I will turn it around and see what happens. I just figured you needed all the pin travel you could get with these little bolts/ light pins. Thanks fellas!! Lee
 
Considering the "Jack Up"

caused by the trigget taking the slop out of the rear of the bolt, perhaps having lugs lapped to a taper might be a good thing. I have no faith in the belief that once the trigger is released everything straightens out. I think it a dern poor design for a precision machine.
 
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