Shoulder set back dies needed

X

xxper

Guest
I am looking for some shoulder set back dies to use on 223 and 308 brass.I understand Paul Bike and Skip Otto made these at one time.Any information would be appreciated.Please reply to me at b4102@frontier.com Thank you, Jim
 
Sorry for the wrong terminology they are case forming dies. Paul Bike has a video on you tube demonstrating his dies and also Skip Otto dies which he calls shoulder set back dies.I need to bump the shoulder back on a 222 to fire form it to a 222x35 also I need to bump the shoulder on 308 brass to make the 30x44.
Thanks Jim
 
Give Ron Hohen a call he can help you with what your looking for.
 
All of my full length sizing dies will shorten my cases from the shoulder to the case head. I do not have a die that will shorten the length of a case without case body support. I have 18 case forming dies also know as trim dies. I say ‘AKA’ because the number on the forming dies is the same number for the trim die.

I can use a full length sizing die to size cases for short chamber without grinding the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die.

I also have case length gages, the one gage I do not have is a case head space gage because my cases do not have head space.

F. Guffey
 
You can make your own from what is called drill bushings sold in msc catalogs. Nobody is making sets anymore unless pbike answers your email. Hes very busy these days.
 
Does Butch still offer the pictured dies?

Thank you,
Jim
 
xxper said:
Sorry for the wrong terminology they are case forming dies. Paul Bike has a video on you tube demonstrating his dies and also Skip Otto dies which he calls shoulder set back dies.I need to bump the shoulder back on a 222 to fire form it to a 222x35 also I need to bump the shoulder on 308 brass to make the 30x44.
Thanks Jim
Click to expand...

Man, I'm gonna' get in trouble for this but I guess I'm in the mood......

About 25yrs ago there was a competitive venue called "Hunter Bench Rest " or HBR wherein the minimum case capacity was "30-30 Win" or about 30X44'ish and maximum scopage was 6X......and there were matches being held regularly here in WA state. So I needed a rifle.And while there were a very few guys actually using the 30-30, I wanted a 308-based case. But being a resizing die freak (my basic requirement is that cases last at least 50 firings, HOT firings) I had a dilemma because I couldn't find a gunsmith who could match my dies to my chamber. I had neither lathe nor mill.....

SOOO, I Improvised And Overcame.

I took a chamber cast of an in-hand RCBS FL die and ordered a reamer from it. I had the reamer and an 18 twist barrel ordered up with instructions they be mailed directly to a reputable action maker and supplied said maker with instruction to run it in to "GO Gage minus .XX" which number I would supply.

Now here's where it gets sticky.

I had no lathe/mill...nor forming dies.

I DID had a cheap benchgrinder, 8"

So I got me an icecream bucket of water and I bellied up to the grinder and within 15 minutes I GROUND OFF a couple hunnerd thou, almost a quarter inch. Neatly. Almost it looked perfessional. I leant over the the wire wheel side and "chamfered" the inside edge and went off to make some cases. I inserted some dead primers and started running the die down and dumping cases full of water and weighing.....deeper and deeper I went until I got my measurement. And sent this measurement off to the gunsmith.

Metal came

Stock in hand

Assembled same

Made me some "try cases"

Gun shot freakin' BUGHOLES..........

Absolute, unmitigated SUCCESS, spent 3 days with 5 cases, fired 43 groups without issue. BUGS...

Sent some fired cases over to Neil Jones for a "real" resizing die and fired many more rounds while I waited for it.

MANY more, like wore out the barrel.

In the meantime HBR died an untimely death thanks to an aberration known as the "30BR" and folks' beefs with the 6X requirement.

I currently own 5 barrels with matching chambers and three completely interchangeable resizers, three reamers, two completed setups and some testing mule stocks...... and have thoroughly explored the cartridge using the original 308 cases, 30-06 cases, 300 Savage cases, the (still relatively new) 6.5X47L and even the new 308 Palma cases. IF HBR ever resurges, I'm all set!!

But the weird thing is.......that old GROUND OFF RCBS DIE still makes and maintains just as perfectly fitted cases as the Neil Jones and the other mod'd custom die. But with only one neck diameter setting. And the bases get so tight that I've stepped up my later reamers to a fatter butt.

Jus' sayin'

It's about FIT, not about how much you spend.

You can grind off an existing die to make a case-forming die. You _can_ even use that die for a full-length die in some cases....

I now have a lathe and mill but to this day when I make up an experimental round I'll often cut off or otherwise modify a cheap factory die.

hth

al
 
Well Al Hunter BR has re surged in the Northwest! There are now shoots in Chelan Wa., Pasco/Tri cities, Lewiston, Id,
and LaGrande Or. The Northwest regional Director is Dan Zaccanti, He is around the Chelan Area. So in conclusion I hope to see you at some of these match's!
 
Btw guffey copied and pasted his response. He has no idea what you’re trying to do.
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I can explain it to you; I can not comprehend it for you or him.

Then there is Butch Lambert, he is a neighbor. Then there is making dies, dies have been made by individuals for many years. I do not play one person against another. There are dies that were made years ago by individuals that were geniuses, one was a good friend of P.O. Ackley; he built rifles, made the reamers and dies with the same reamer. That is not something we can discuss on the Internet because I am told it can not be done.

I was asked to work on a set of dies the smith made. Because of the design of the die it was possible. Again, the one thing that is not possible is to post pictures or discuss the design because in about a few days everyone will be claiming they were making dies ‘like that’ 40 years ago.

I am looking for some shoulder set back dies to use on 223 and 308 brass.
Click to expand...

He has no idea what you’re trying to do.
Click to expand...

I am not trying to say anything. I am saying I can not set the shoulder back, I can not bump the shoulder back. I find it impossible to bump or set the shoulder back. My shoulders do not move. I can shorten the length of a case from the shoulder to the case head. I have fired 8mm57 cases in a 8mm06 chamber. The shoulder of the 8mm57 case did not move, part of the shoulder became part of the case body and part of the neck because part of the shoulder.

When I form cases cases the shoulder of my parent case does not move. The shoulder on the formed case is a new shoulder. The old shoulder became part of the neck. And the shoulder was formed from the case body. I have scribed lines at the case body/shoulder juncture and lines at the shoulder/neck juncture to prove the shoulder does not move. I can not size a case or form a case without case body support.

Again, I have forming dies; my favorite forming die is a short forming die. The short forming die prevents the case from squatting. I have little to no interest in changing all the names of my old dies.

If all your friend wants to do is shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head suggest to him he use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage. I can shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head .012” with nothing more than a feeler gage, RCBS shell holder and an RCBS full length sizing die. I know, I could grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die to accomplish the same thing.

F. Guffey
 
Mr. F Guffey would you be so kind as to explain your feeler gauge method.

Thank you,
Jim
 
Boy do I want a set of Butch's forming dies!!!! I asked him a few years ago and he confirmed he was out.
 
My bushing set.




What we have below was 2 458 Lott cases shortened and necked to 224 and 177. The last one is a necked down 38 S&W



The bushings are very easy to make. They do not need to be heat treated. The ones that I sold were heat treated, but my personal set wasn't. Bushings in my set are made from 303 SS that is .625 diameter and are .625 long. Drill a hole through and bore or ream the hole. They do not have to have the radius, a 45 deg countersink will work. It really needs a good polish. The threaded holder is the time consumer. I need to check, but the inside threads are not standard. The threads on the OD are 7/8X14. I may have prints, but would like somebody to produce them in a PDF or some such.

Sales are not fast enough to justify the expense of 100 sets for a minimum run.
 
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Steelhead1 said:
Well Al Hunter BR has re surged in the Northwest! There are now shoots in Chelan Wa., Pasco/Tri cities, Lewiston, Id,
and LaGrande Or. The Northwest regional Director is Dan Zaccanti, He is around the Chelan Area. So in conclusion I hope to see you at some of these match's!
Click to expand...

REAL HBR? Not VSC??? Chelan, Tri-Ci and LaGrande are all in my range....

I'm excited. Are match schedules listed on NBRSA?

I just can't get into club shoots
 
Al,
You should see the schedule in the NBRSA magazine in the march issue. Memorial Day weekend there will be 100,200,300 Hunter BR in LaGrande. Chelan has a match that you decide which gun you want to shoot for the weekend Hunter or VFS 100,200,& 300. Lewiston and Pasco alternate Hunter & VFS!
 
found some

Found some thanks to TS and thanks to all that replied.

Thank you,
Jim
 
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