Should my custom rifle maker do one shot one clean on new barrel test?

S

smellinsweets

Guest
Having a custom rifle made and the gun is guaranteed .5 moa with factory match ammo. The maker stresses the 1 shot 1 clean rule of barrel break in, but shoots the guaranteed accuracy group without cleaning between shots. Does this make sense in terms of breaking in a new barrel? Will it affect the future accuracy of my barrel if he shoots a 5 shot group without a pre-clean and 1 shot 1 clean before the gun ever gets to me?

Thank you for your thoughts.
 
I should have noted that the barrel is hand-lapped.
 
Fireproof suit in place; flame away!

smellinsweets said:
Having a custom rifle made and the gun is guaranteed .5 moa with factory match ammo. The maker stresses the 1 shot 1 clean rule of barrel break in, but shoots the guaranteed accuracy group without cleaning between shots. Does this make sense in terms of breaking in a new barrel? Will it affect the future accuracy of my barrel if he shoots a 5 shot group without a pre-clean and 1 shot 1 clean before the gun ever gets to me?

Thank you for your thoughts.
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Barrel break-in, without a doubt, is the biggest waste of time in shooting! :rolleyes:

Yes, there are those who strongly disagree but I base my opinion on twenty-four years of benchrest experience and I have a Fibertron bore scope with which to examine every inch of my barrels. I assure you, any benefit from the one-shot-and-clean break-in procedure is strictly between the ears. :rolleyes:

Don't believe me? Read what Tony Boyer has to say about it in his book on page 187. While you're there, review the chapter on cleaning page 197.

Hope this saves some of the newcomers much time, money and frustration. :D Many fine barrels are ruined each year by overcleaning with poor equipment and improper procedures.

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene Beggs said:
Barrel break-in, without a doubt, is the biggest waste of time in shooting! :rolleyes:

Yes, there are those who strongly disagree but I base my opinion on twenty-four years of benchrest experience and I have a Fibertron bore scope with which to examine every inch of my barrels. I assure you, any benefit from the one-shot-and-clean break-in procedure is strictly between the ears. :rolleyes:

Don't believe me? Read what Tony Boyer has to say about it in his book on page 187. While you're there, review the chapter on cleaning page 197.

Hope this saves some of the newcomers much time, money and frustration. :D Many fine barrels are ruined each year by overcleaning with poor equipment and improper procedures.

Later,

Gene Beggs
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Gene, your last statement is the most important!!! There are a lot of rifles being cleaned, over-cleaned, with bad equipment, especially bore guides.
 
IMO. It is absolutely neccessary to clean a new barrel, with a brush, before it is fired. There will be micro burrs on the trailing edges
in the leade area. If not removed before firing, the micro chips, will embed in the first bullet and plow additional grooves
in the bore.
 
Bob Kingsbury said:
IMO. It is absolutely neccessary to clean a new barrel, with a brush, before it is fired. There will be micro burrs on the trailing edges
in the leade area. If not removed before firing, the micro chips, will embed in the first bullet and plow additional grooves
in the bore.
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Bob, you are certainly correct when you say that a newly chambered barrel should be cleaned well with a bronze brush before firing the first shot. I always follow my normal cleaning procedure before firing a new barrel. I hope my statements about barrel break-in being a waste of time did not suggest to anyone that I would fire a new barrel without a thorough cleaning.

You are correct; with a newly chambered barrel, there will be lots of microscopic burrs chips and cutting oil that must be removed before firing the first shot. What I was saying is that I just don't waste time firing one shot and clean for hours on end as some do.

When I have a new barrel to test, I prep twenty new cases, fireform ten of them and clean thoroughly. Repeat with the remaining ten rounds and after another thorough cleaning, I consider the barrel ready to show me what it can do.

Hope this shines a little more light on the subject.

Gene Beggs
 
I really had no intentions of ever posting on this site again, but somebody notified me of this thread and they were really confused because of it. So I decided to throw my two cents in to play the devil's advocate. Also, I was informed that I had to have at least one post for my profile to be seen under a search in case somebody needed my email address or something.;)

One thing that no "non-believer" has ever been able to explain to me is this:

If barrel breakin is a waste of time, how come coppered patches diminish in number as the process goes along? Why does it take (for example) 9 patches for shots 1 thru 7, then suddenly go to 3 patches on shot 8? Then go to two patches on shot 10?

Here is a complete sequence set of patches used to breakin a Bartlein 338 barrel recently. Solvent used was Boretech Eliminator and the patches were wrapped around an aluminum/nylon brush to avoid "false reads". The first number in each column is the sequence shot(s) and the second number is the patch number in that sequence.
As you can see from the pic, the copper came out of the barrel easier after the second sequence and I felt like this barrel was probably broke in at that point (good barrel!). But I continued shooting one shot and cleaning up to sequence 6 where I fired two bullets. Sequence 7 and all thereafter were two shot sequences. Sequence 7 patch #3 was cleaner than second sequence patch #3 despite it being a two shot sequence. So obviously, something happened during this test that was clearly indicating that the copper was either coming out easier, or there was less copper to come out. Or both.
breakinpatches.jpg


Now, I have run this test with every barrel I've worked with for the last ten years or so and they all have shown a similar progression of decreasing blue patches. However, the factory barrels produce bluer patches for much longer than the custom barrels (again, proof that something is happening) and it can be quantified. I can bet you $100 that I can blindly take a custom barrel and a factory barrel and tell you which is which simply by how "easy" they breakin and I won't lose a penny.

Now, to quantify how much of a difference breakin makes in the grand scheme of accuracy, I don't honestly know. Maybe it only makes the barrel .0000001% more accurate then just taking it and shooting it right off the bat such as Gene does. But, barrels that have been broken in by this method seem to clean a bit easier in the first third of their lives (before serious throat cracking appears) and also seem to "settle down" a bit quicker. Maybe it's just my imagination with that, but my eyes are seeing the above picture with perfect clarity.

Btw, this has already been said in previous threads on this topic, but most barrel manufacturer's still recommend some type of break in. So maybe I'm not the only one who still "believes"?

As for Tony's book, yes, he does agree with Gene on the subject. But he disagrees with Gene on the validity of Wind Probes (pg 312), so I guess you've just gotta realize that not everything you read is gospel and opinions are like anal orifices.
[PS. I disagree with Tony on both points of breakin and probes!]
 
Over the years i came to the conclusion that the only thing i do in break in is to fire one and clean and bore scope each shot 5 times if needed. This lets the you see if there is an area that has copper on it,like the throat or at the muzzle. If none,go for it but if it has copper after 5 you may have a problem.If you do have an area that still has copper and continue to shoot over it is counter productive and it will never get any better till it gets polished up. So to say barrel break in is a waist of time, i don't think so. I never use a brush and had been very lucky to this point and save the brushing till the barrel is almost gone. If i do decide to use it,i never pull it back through. I look at the crown and on barrels that have more than 2000 rds. and the crown still looks good. I would say if your happy with the way you do it stay with it.......... jim
 
All good points guys. Discussions like this really make us think and bring out different ideas and opinions for everyone to see, letting them decide for themselves how they want to do things.

Goodgrouper, I hope you will continue posting here on the forum. Your posts are always well written and thought out. I appreciate you taking the time to lay out your results for all to see. The more points of view the better.

Faith in the one-shot-and-clean breakin procedure rests on the premise that even a slight amount of copper fouling is detrimental to accuracy. And that if there is even a speck of copper deposited in the bore and we don't completely remove it before firing another shot, copper will continue to build up in that spot and the barrel will never smooth up. Based on what I've observed with the borescope, I don't believe either point is of any concern.

The breakin process consumes barrel life, components and time. The barrel will "break-in" after the same number of cleanings anyway and you won't be wasting either time, barrel life or components. But if one thinks what he is doing has benefits and it makes him feel good to do it, it adds confidence to his shooting whether it is true or not.

Good shootin' !

Gene Beggs
 
I guess if copper doesn't matter and it doesn't build up the only thing to remove is the carbon......... jim
 
smellinsweets said:
Having a custom rifle made and the gun is guaranteed .5 moa with factory match ammo. The maker stresses the 1 shot 1 clean rule of barrel break in, but shoots the guaranteed accuracy group without cleaning between shots. Does this make sense in terms of breaking in a new barrel? Will it affect the future accuracy of my barrel if he shoots a 5 shot group without a pre-clean and 1 shot 1 clean before the gun ever gets to me?

Thank you for your thoughts.
Click to expand...




Back in the late eighties,I bought two Weatherby Mark V rifles. A .257 and a 7mm. Both rifles came with a target of a three shot group in the box. (Proof of Accuracy). I was not impressed with the groups,but the rifles were beautiful. I figured I could squeeze better accuracy from both rifles with reloads. It didn't happen. Too much freebore. I'm way too impatient to fiddle around,reloading for a deer rifle,when off the shelf ammo (Expensive)shot just a good as reloads. I wonder if Weatherby cleaned those rifle barrels before they fired those three shot groups? I liquidated both of those beautiful rifles when I discovered what accuracy really was.

I would tell my Gunsmith to skip the test. The true test is whether or not you can get the rifle to consistently shoot ,5 MOA. If you can't,then send it back to your gunsmith while the accuracy warranty is still good.



Glenn
 
A friend of mine gave me a tip, so I tried it. I now break-in a new benchrest barrel wet with BBS. So far, all the barrels have stopped fouling after the first shot. The late Skip Otto used to
use ATF to do the same thing. I clean the new barrel with Acetone and follow with Brake Cleaner before firing the first shot down a WET barrel. By wet, I mean slightly wet.
 
Skipper had a name for it...... like "fluid lapping" or somesuch. He stressed that the bore was to be DAMP, not dripping ATF, as you mention... and he reported the same results you mention.
 
Thank you Al and Gene for the kind words. Much appreciated.

I see now that my 800+ posts have returned against my asking for them to be removed, so maybe I'll hang around. We'll see. To tell you the truth, I'd rather discuss shooting topics with real shooters at real matches instead of dealing with rude, "misplaced" mods and keyboard shooters who field every question asked on this forum whether they have the answer or not.:( I guess I just don't have the patience or tolerance for that idiocracy anymore, and that seems to be almost all you get on the internet these days.

As to the topic at hand, Gene, you made several interesting points I'd like to comment on if I may? First, this one:
Faith in the one-shot-and-clean breakin procedure rests on the premise that even a slight amount of copper fouling is detrimental to accuracy. And that if there is even a speck of copper deposited in the bore and we don't completely remove it before firing another shot, copper will continue to build up in that spot and the barrel will never smooth up.
Then this one::"The barrel will "break-in" after the same number of cleanings anyway and you won't be wasting either time, barrel life or components.

I agree that those spots will eventually disappear whether you breakin the barrel or not. Eventually you will end up cleaning the same amount of times and the barrel will be "broken in" much to the same effect (I like to call it "seasoned in" or the point where the barrel attains the condition in which it seems to shoot to it's potential). The difference then, in our two methods, is basically how quickly we get the barrel to that point.
Yes, the breakin method is a pain and uses up components and a wee bit of barrel life (although an extra 5 or 10 rounds is pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things) but, that being admitted to, I actually think breakin wastes LESS components than not breaking in. Here's why:

If you don't breakin the barrel, you are essentially just prolonging the time it takes to get your barrel to that "seasoned" condition. During that time, you may shoot lots of groups or targets with less than stellar results. You may even start to think that you got a barrel that just isn't very good. Or if you're like me, you start to wonder if you have forgotten how to shoot and you start going down the old troubleshoot list (again). Pretty soon, you've burned up another pound of powder and another box of bullets. The barrel gets taken off and put in the "practice barrel" or "fireforming" bin. Sound familiar?

But what if that barrel just simply got put away before it got to the conditioned phase?

So all I'm saying is that I believe breakin speeds up the process of seeing what the true potential of the barrel is going to be. In other words, you get the first 10 cleanings done in the first 10 shots instead of the first 10 cleanings coming in 250 shots thereby getting the barrel to a condition it prefers in less time and with less components.

I'll add a couple more things to the discussion. I think copper in the barrel is given too much blame for inaccuracies. Even among break-in proponents. Copper is a gilding metal and it will only layer up to a certain thickness point under pressure. If this were not so, you'd see lots of machine gun barrels that after firing thousands of rounds without cleaning, they'd look like a .17 caliber bore. Obviously, anyone who's actually looked down a machine gun barrel knows that doesn't happen. I've seen many barrels that showed no apparent loss of accuracy even after firing 50+ shots of copper plated bullets without cleaning. So I cannot see where using Gene's method of prepping a barrel would ever hurt the barrel.
Carbon build-up is much more of a problem than copper build-up in my mind.

Secondly, a breakin procedure such as what Creekwalker described is not going to do what I want a breakin to do. The goal is not to keep copper off the riflings entirely, it's to make that bullet swage down the bare metal and condition the bore where it is going to by simulating that "first shot after a thorough cleaning" effect. By the same token, a breakin procedure in which you fire three or four shots right from the start isn't going to hurt anything, it simply just wastes two or three of the subsequent shots. In other words, you'll get the most bang for the buck by firing only one shot and then cleaning. In other words, the idea is to get those first 10 cleanings out of the way as fast as possible in the barrel's life with the least amount of bullets being used.

So, that's just my take on it. But, to prove that I have an open mind, and since we go through these dang 6ppc barrels about as fast as we go through a pack of Charmin rolls, I will re-visit Gene's method on my next barrel and see if I get different results. Lord knows I can do without the dreaded "breakin day" at the range one time!:D
 
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Goodgrouper in your post 18 above you bring up some good points. I must admit that back in my early days of benchrest, I used the one-shot-and-clean break-in procedure and I shot much better in those days than I have in recent times. :rolleyes:

The next new barrel I put on, I'll once again, try the one-shot-and-clean routine and see what happens. :eek:
'ell, that may be my problem; huh? :p At any rate, I know it won't hurt anything. :D

If I remember correctly, the first Buffalo Shoot I participated in was in September 1988 at the Midland Shooters range. Skip Otto shot on the bench to my right and Jerry Johnson was on my left. I found it odd that they both paid so much attention to what I was doing. :eek: Believe me, I learned a lot that weekend and one of the things I learned from Skip was the one-shot method of barrel break-in. Skip said "I can break-in a barrel with one shot and there won't be a trace of copper left in the barrel!" :mad:

I knew, right away, I had made a mistake by saying, "Aw hell." :mad:

Now, anyone that knew Skip Otto could tell you that you just didn't make a smart ass remark like that to him without paying a price, especially if you were a rookie. :p Skip said, "Put your money where your mouth is." So, what could I do? :eek: I threw down a quarter and said, "Show me!"

And show me, he did. :eek: Needless to say, I lost my quarter. :rolleyes: I miss old Skip, he was quite a guy. I enjoyed my asssociation with him and learned a lot from him during the years that followed. You knew when he was in the area and never had to wait long to find out what was on his mind. There was only one, Skip Otto. Rest in peace my friend. :cool:

Gene Beggs
 
Good story Gene. Old Skip was quite the character. I shoot a lot at the Grand Junction match and the Skip stories abound there! It's fun to go there just to hear them.:)

Hey, lets compare notes after our little experiments. It should be fun. If nothing else, we'll both have something to look forward to!
Now all we need up here is little bit of nice weather!

Btw, do you have plans to shoot Raton or Phoenix this year?
 
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