Secrets of the houston warehouse bullet jump question

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65shooter

Member
In regards to that fantastic read titled "Secrets of the Houston Warehouse", I have a question about bullet jump. I hear that the old lore was, the most accurate combinations pretty much always involve jam and not jump. Even in that article. But now, I see that jump is the new trend, reading articles like the one Mark Gordon wrote a few years ago. Though, how can the exact opposites give the exact same results? Am I missing the context? Meaning do .22ppc's fired out of 21" benchrest guns have completely different requirements than say 6.5 creeds do out of 26" barrels? I'm guessing they do, but how different can guns and bullets really be? I mean I know "one bullet may like jam and the other bullet jump." yea, I got all that, but these guys aren't talking in terms of evvvvverything's different and you must experiment. Most guys on a firing line shooting bench rest in say the 1980's were pretty much running very similar set ups and calibers. When the new fad was jamming the bullets, everyone started doing it on all their calibers, and still shooting SUPER small groups. So even though 'every guns different', in terms I'm asking of, they're really not.

I guess trends can really confuse people in the end, because when you see super high level shooters of today, saying how the old ways weren't really producing the precision we have today, I tend to disagree; Mcmillan's .009 5 shot group size was shot in 1973, with pretty much none of the equipment we have now. So who's right?
 
A lot of factors come into play with rifle tuning. There are a lot of combinations that work, it's just a matter of trying different things until something remarkable happens. Me, I "Settled" on .006" into the lands measured from where one can just barely see land marks on the bullet. I then test powder in .02 increments until I find a one bullet hole group. I settled on .006" because I can always open the bolt on a loaded round without sticking a bullet in the throat. I've only been doing this a little over 25 years so I'm still on a learning curve :). I will go on to say Barrels dictate what they want and some of e'm don't want "nuthin". I have a barrel that only would shoot one lot of bullets, one that none of my other barrels liked. I have also had 3 HUMMERS over time so I know what they are like as well.

All of that said, I know of some shooters who jam HARD and use only powder to determine accuracy, which works as well. From tests I have seen on Youtube, the .006"in and .002" of neck tension is what has been giving some shooters great results. That is where I am at currently. OH, and I have a friend who swears he was jumping his 6 BR .050" and had successful results. A lot of things work. So, the question comes, how many components and barrels does one want to use to test stuff? I have a notebook of things that have worked over the years and believe it or not, they sometimes still do, depending on the barrel.
 
I see. Quick question; what do you or your friends do to their powder charges when they want to jam the lands hard? Do you reduce the charge, or change powder?
 
65shooter said:
I see. Quick question; what do you or your friends do to their powder charges when they want to jam the lands hard? Do you reduce the charge, or change powder?
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Yes and no. Yes, any time you change something, the default answer is start over and work up. But no, I don't always do it. You have to be the judge in terms of how hot you are loaded before making any changes without backing back down and starting over. Realistically, I've never found a hard rule that works consistently as far as which way to go with powder due to a seating depth change. And just because you increase the amount of jam, does not automatically mean pressure will be higher. I find peak pressures are when I have a very short jump as opposed to a big jump or a hard jam.

Part of the magic of handloading is reading group shapes and adjusting based on that. I don't think there is a shortcut on googlefoo for that but it takes time and experience more than anything. Once you get that nailed down, tuning becomes so much simpler, be it with powder, seating depth or with a tuner. The groups tell the story most all the time.
 
65shooter said:
I see. Quick question; what do you or your friends do to their powder charges when they want to jam the lands hard? Do you reduce the charge, or change powder?
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Work with published loads as you are getting started and you won't likely get in any trouble regardless of where you seat your bullets. This isn't really a Black Art.
 
True, while not a black art, can still be dangerous if you dont know the proper limits. When reading around on the internet for jamming the lands recipes, they alllllways say 'pressure spikes', but then NEVER tell you how, when, where, or what to do to mitigate it lol. Well ok, pressure spikes-what do you do about it? lol. We all know always start at the bottom when you change something, but NO manual ever, gives charge weights for a hard jam load. They don't exist in reloading manuals, so all info must be gleaned from people that have already had the nuts to try it in their own rifles. Which is why I'm here. There's no WAY I'm going to 'just try' some load that doesn't exist in any manual, without getting some good advice from experienced target shooters first lol.
 
65shooter said:
True, while not a black art, can still be dangerous if you dont know the proper limits. When reading around on the internet for jamming the lands recipes, they alllllways say 'pressure spikes', but then NEVER tell you how, when, where, or what to do to mitigate it lol. Well ok, pressure spikes-what do you do about it? lol. We all know always start at the bottom when you change something, but NO manual ever, gives charge weights for a hard jam load. They don't exist in reloading manuals, so all info must be gleaned from people that have already had the nuts to try it in their own rifles. Which is why I'm here. There's no WAY I'm going to 'just try' some load that doesn't exist in any manual, without getting some good advice from experienced target shooters first lol.
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Look at it this way. Every manual must account for very different freebore amounts. So yes, they are telling you what you're asking as much as they can. There are too many variables to pin anything down to simply loading a certain amount of a given powder at xxx from or into the lands and it will not blow up and will shoot .1's. Testing is how we know stuff. It's not the internet, contrary to popular belief. Kid gloves are off. Time to get to work! The internet does not KNOW the answer!
 
Well when I test these new loads with a little bit of jam in the lands and it works and doesnt blow up, and then I start the load ladders and begin at the lowest in the manual, and say work my way all the way up and everything stays together, then one day someone asks how it works I'll tell them. Then at that point, the internet knew the answer lol. :)
 
65shooter said:
Well when I test these new loads with a little bit of jam in the lands and it works and doesnt blow up, and then I start the load ladders and begin at the lowest in the manual, and say work my way all the way up and everything stays together, then one day someone asks how it works I'll tell them. Then at that point, the internet knew the answer lol. :)
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In YOUR gun...yes. Doesn't mean their gun has the same anything really nor does it mean they'll have the same results. Same as asking this question has not yielded a one size fits all answer...because it doesn't exist. Maybe you don't fall into this category and I'm sorry to even imply it if not, but there is a new generation of shooters who seem to want a one size fits all answer from google that is not an honest possibility. There are too many variables and the only way to know is to work your loads up and actually do the testing. Google is great but not for this. Again, I'm sorry but it seems you want to skip over the work and just go straight to the answer. It can happen. You'll at least likely get powder choices that are appropriate for the case an close in terms of powder charge. So yes, it has value but it's limited. There are no shortcuts aside from that but there are also different expectations for different disciplines. You may well stumble up a 1/2 moa load like this but you'll never know the full potential without doing the work yourself.
 
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65shooter said:
True, while not a black art, can still be dangerous if you dont know the proper limits. When reading around on the internet for jamming the lands recipes, they alllllways say 'pressure spikes', but then NEVER tell you how, when, where, or what to do to mitigate it lol. Well ok, pressure spikes-what do you do about it? lol. We all know always start at the bottom when you change something, but NO manual ever, gives charge weights for a hard jam load. They don't exist in reloading manuals, so all info must be gleaned from people that have already had the nuts to try it in their own rifles. Which is why I'm here. There's no WAY I'm going to 'just try' some load that doesn't exist in any manual, without getting some good advice from experienced target shooters first lol.
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Read my last post again.
 
I've only been in competition for a couple years, but no one I know of jumps, and I've never heard anyone recommend it either. There's only 1 guy that I know who is shooting a .22PPC, so that's not going to provide much of a direction to go off of. There's a big difference in what a 7 Ogive BR bullets wants, and a VLD. Seating them to the same place mostly likely won't work.

No one shooting the 6PPC in competition is getting their load from a manual.
 
sbindy said:
I've only been in competition for a couple years, but no one I know of jumps, and I've never heard anyone recommend it either. There's only 1 guy that I know who is shooting a .22PPC, so that's not going to provide much of a direction to go off of. There's a big difference in what a 7 Ogive BR bullets wants, and a VLD. Seating them to the same place mostly likely won't work.

No one shooting the 6PPC in competition is getting their load from a manual.
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the problem with this statement is "follow the leader" mentality. if the leaders are jamming, most will jam to copy with no knowledge why. where i shoot you will find both jam and jump and some of the top shooter around( lester bruno, gary ocock, bud mundy and more) they all try different things to see what works with the CURRENT BBL AND CURRENT LOT OF BULLETS (tho they typically make their own) i own 4 short range br rifles and only ONE has shot better at jam than jump. if you just follow its a toss of the coin. you have to be willing to TRY different things and see what works for you period
 
I'd like to stay with the Houston Warehouse but change the emphasis. It was stated that a barrel lenght of 21 3/4 inches was crucial to accuracy! How many of you are using that lenght and if you are how did you arrive at it? The story seemed to imply that cartridges other than 6PPC also shoot best at 21 3/4. An awful lot has changed since those nights in the warehouse, is this one them?
 
rsmithsr2 said:
the problem with this statement is "follow the leader" mentality. if the leaders are jamming, most will jam to copy with no knowledge why. where i shoot you will find both jam and jump and some of the top shooter around( lester bruno, gary ocock, bud mundy and more) they all try different things to see what works with the CURRENT BBL AND CURRENT LOT OF BULLETS (tho they typically make their own) i own 4 short range br rifles and only ONE has shot better at jam than jump. if you just follow its a toss of the coin. you have to be willing to TRY different things and see what works for you period
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Of course you have to test everything. That's a requirement from the start. If someone wants to just shoot casually, they can do whatever they're comfortable with and probably get decent results. Competition is a whole different deal.
 
wiggytelsta said:
I'd like to stay with the Houston Warehouse but change the emphasis. It was stated that a barrel lenght of 21 3/4 inches was crucial to accuracy! How many of you are using that lenght and if you are how did you arrive at it? The story seemed to imply that cartridges other than 6PPC also shoot best at 21 3/4. An awful lot has changed since those nights in the warehouse, is this one them?
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Depends on the contour of the barrel and whether or not it will make weight. You can probably make 4 or more different barrel configurations from the same blank depending upon where you cut it that will all shoot differently even if they were all the magical 21 3/4.
 
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