Scales and Chargemaster

D

Dog-duster

Guest
I am selling my old RCBS 502 scale with a press and accessories that I'm not using anymore. I'll be in the market for a new scale or even a Chargemaster. I am somewhat familiar with a lot of the best practices for using electronic scales so I have an idea what I'd be getting into there. Has anyone swithched to a Chargemaster and seen an increase in ES or SD? I like the idea of being able to accomplish other tasks while I'm getting powder charges dropped. I would like to be able to run charges in the house and put them in my test tubes to load in the shop. If a balance beam or decent electronic scale is just a better way to go I guess I can deal with that. On my old 502 I could definitely see the difference in adding 2 and sometimes 1 kernel of Varget. I'd imagine this accuracy is easily possible with the better scales, is it with the RCBS scale on the Chargemaster? Thanks.

Nate
 
For ME getting down to single digit ES is all about weighing to the kernel. Others claim single digit ES using other methods but for ME I solved a whole host of problems when I learned to weigh powder.

I use a Chargemster in conjunction with a Denver Instruments MXX123

IMO the Chargemaster is accurate to within a tenth if you take the time to watch the readout. This is a matter of 3-8 kernels of powder. If you don't pay attention you'll get hammered by overcharges up to a third of a grain. These can wreck your day.

hth

al
 
you can see more on the 502 than on the chargemaster.....cause you can see the beam is not level..the chargemaster will tell you nothing till you reach its sensitivityis reahed, which must be close to a tenth.
do what all does..an mx123 scale or its replacement
.02 with .03 sensitivity.......

mike in co
 
alinwa said:
For ME getting down to single digit ES is all about weighing to the kernel. Others claim single digit ES using other methods but for ME I solved a whole host of problems when I learned to weigh powder.

I use a Chargemster in conjunction with a Denver Instruments MXX123

IMO the Chargemaster is accurate to within a tenth if you take the time to watch the readout. This is a matter of 3-8 kernels of powder. If you don't pay attention you'll get hammered by overcharges up to a third of a grain. These can wreck your day.

hth

al
Click to expand...
Al,
I am considering buying the Chargemaster but I have had bad experiences with electronic scales so I have my doubts. When you say that one must pay attention, do you mean that you are watching the scale reading as the chargemaster dribbles powder and you pull the pan off the scale once the reading shows the desired charge?
 
Steve, no.

The Chargemaster dispenses powder thru a threaded tube just like all the hand tricklers. It's got a feedback loop that decreases the charging speed as the charge nears final weight but powder being what it is you will always get those situations where the kernels stack and a big ol' blurp of powder drops at the last second. The machine beeps but you need to actually look at the readout to consistently catch the blurps, the overcharges.

Let me be perfectly clear, it's far and away the best system out there all things considered. It's more accurate than a thrower and easy to use. I'm saying nothing bad about it. In fact I'm a real apologist for RCBS as a whole, they make good stuff. I'm just convinced that weighing to the kernel is efficacious so I start with the CM and finish on an accurate scale.

al
 
alinwa said:
Steve, no.

The Chargemaster dispenses powder thru a threaded tube just like all the hand tricklers. It's got a feedback loop that decreases the charging speed as the charge nears final weight but powder being what it is you will always get those situations where the kernels stack and a big ol' blurp of powder drops at the last second. The machine beeps but you need to actually look at the readout to consistently catch the blurps, the overcharges.

Let me be perfectly clear, it's far and away the best system out there all things considered. It's more accurate than a thrower and easy to use. I'm saying nothing bad about it. In fact I'm a real apologist for RCBS as a whole, they make good stuff. I'm just convinced that weighing to the kernel is efficacious so I start with the CM and finish on an accurate scale.

al
Click to expand...
Al
Thanks for the clarification. I also think that RCBS is a great company...one of the few. I now dump powder from a dispenser and dribble to the desired weight with a beam scale; would the Chargemaster be faster and as accurate?
 
one caution on dribbling with a beam scale....hysterisous or somehting like that..the resistance to change in the beam.
if you only dribble up to the zero mark....you are probably over weight.
move the beam everytime you add powder and let it re settle..or at least when you are close

my opinion is the charge master is faster but not more accurate, possible less.
see my first post.

mike in co
 
sinclaire has the acculab ..lab scale on sale...only 299....i think the normal is 325 or so...

mike in co
 
I think I've settled on the acculab scale. Now I just have to set aside the cash for it. Btw Mike, you missed the first match... Now that you've shot the rifle we'll plan on seeing you next month.

Nate
 
and the dates for may and june ???
mike
Dog-duster said:
I think I've settled on the acculab scale. Now I just have to set aside the cash for it. Btw Mike, you missed the first match... Now that you've shot the rifle we'll plan on seeing you next month.

Nate
Click to expand...
 
You can disturb a loadcell just as you should a beam scale to get better readings.
With a CM, you must do this. After the charge, you disturb the pan & watch it settle to the correct value. Sometimes it's settle even to the right reading fails to give you a warm fuzzy, and you just dump it and re-charge.
Eventually you get very very good with your calls.

There are DIY mods out there for the CM. Could probably find them with a search here, and RCBS has improved their programming(based on our inputs).
I use a straw in the drop tube, and made mine speed adjustable for different powders. I used to check every charge with an Acculab, until there was no gain in that for me. I can set it to charge within a couple kernels, and call weight to single kernel based on it's re-settle behavior, even when the CM scale isn't accurate to single kernel.
It's accuracy & response is good enough, and it really is a great addition to my bench.
 
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Nate,
I would like to add to what the others have said in that you have to keep drafts away from your scale, variance in heat, florescent lighting and other electronic interference, if all that is met and you leave it on 24/7 or give ample time to warm up and settle I think you will be happy with it, I like mine. I like the others use a acculab 123 in conjunction with it.
Wayne.
 
I have a tuned beam scale and an Acculab scale and after much experimenting prefer to use the beam.
The beam scale repeats more accurately and to one kernel of powder and doesn't drift. Once I got some practice the beam is almost as fast as the electronic scale and anybody can weigh a charge to within 1 or 2 kernels in about 20 seconds once you get going which I think is faster than the automatic green machines that only throw to a tenth or less. No doubt you have to get used to your trickling technique and after getting one of those newfangled push-button yellow Omega tricklers it makes all the difference in speeding up your powder handling and makes adding those last couple kernels a snap just tap the button and watch each kernel drop in the pan. I was amazed how accurately an old beam scale can repeat and that they show each kernel as you drop them into the pan no bumping or tapping for me the pan stays in motion till the last kernel drops.
Also have been using a Quick-Measure powder thrower and it is the most accurate measure so far for throwing Varget and you just throw a little light and trickle up the last few kernels and it goes pretty quick.
The Acculab is very nice and accurate but tends to drift especially if going along at a leisurely pace and always concerns me when the numbers are dancing around whereas the beam just reacts to the kernels as they drop in and never drifts and repeats spot on.
 
MAYBE YOU COULD TELL US WHERE TO BUY A "TUNED" BEAM SCALE that is as accurate as the mx123/acculab scale ??
the mx123 is plus or minus 0.02 with 0.03 sensitivity.
it honestly sounds like you have a problem with your setup of the acculab scale.......
and you are way wrong on trickling into a beam scale...
what you described is 100% wrong for accuracy.
one must get the beam moving after adding powder....you cannot triclke up from a stationary beam.
its called hysterious or something like that. it is the resistance to change.the charge will be over if you trickle up to the zero mark.

next.....
mike in co

twentytwoguy said:
I have a tuned beam scale and an Acculab scale and after much experimenting prefer to use the beam.
The beam scale repeats more accurately and to one kernel of powder and doesn't drift. Once I got some practice the beam is almost as fast as the electronic scale and anybody can weigh a charge to within 1 or 2 kernels in about 20 seconds once you get going which I think is faster than the automatic green machines that only throw to a tenth or less. No doubt you have to get used to your trickling technique and after getting one of those newfangled push-button yellow Omega tricklers it makes all the difference in speeding up your powder handling and makes adding those last couple kernels a snap just tap the button and watch each kernel drop in the pan. I was amazed how accurately an old beam scale can repeat and that they show each kernel as you drop them into the pan no bumping or tapping for me the pan stays in motion till the last kernel drops.
Also have been using a Quick-Measure powder thrower and it is the most accurate measure so far for throwing Varget and you just throw a little light and trickle up the last few kernels and it goes pretty quick.
The Acculab is very nice and accurate but tends to drift especially if going along at a leisurely pace and always concerns me when the numbers are dancing around whereas the beam just reacts to the kernels as they drop in and never drifts and repeats spot on.
Click to expand...
 
alinwa said:
LOL ;)

it's hysterisis, but the concept's sound!

al
Click to expand...
Hysterisis is only present in magnetically dampened scales. I have 3 electronic scales and 1/2 dozen beam scales
I use an old Redding with the oil paddle [ no oil ] it has a beam centering devise which brings it close and still allows it to move.
all the others cause heartburn. My acculab sits in an unused office with the door closed. No lights, no fans and has
power supply filters. I watch thru a glass window with a flashlight and it just wanders up and down . Its been on for
almost a year now, do you think its warmed up yet.
 
bob and al,
thanks for the replies....
i have seen my mx123 move .02/.04 by its self. my guess is that we have not spent enough money to get away from that. jackie bought a more expensive model maybe he will chime in.
the bottom line to me is that the mx123 is more accurate and repeatable than a std beam scale that starts at plus or minus 0.1 and goes down from there.
i just loaded for an up comming 1000 yd match. my loads are plus or minus .03...( because the sticks of 4831 are so BIG). you cannot do that with a reloaders beam beam scale and impossible to do with a $100 electronic scale that is plus or minus 0.1.
bob...have you used the scale ???...... they are quick...and you can watch the weight change as you add a single stick of 4831. with fine powders you get better results..n133/8208/ball.

mike in co
 
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