Savage 12 LRP 6.5 Creedmoor reloading for benchrest accuracy.

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PassTheAmmo

Guest
Hi All...

I'm looking to correspond and compare notes with other Savage 12 LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor owners who are attempting to or have experience with that rifle/caliber combination.

I have been reloading for many years but since my disability I have decided to approach my reloading with benchrest accuracy as the goal. I haven't taken things to the extreme yet but I'm working my way there a step or two at a time. I've been able to work up two loads that consistently result in under a half inch 5 shot group at 200 yards. Ooops - meant 1/2 inch @ 100 yards and under an inch at 200 yards.

I'm really enjoying it - and I know I'll probably never reach the point where I could compete but testing and trying different things is a lot of fun - especially when things work!

Thanks
 
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A half inch at 100yds is pretty good for that rifle. I saw a Savage at the range in Bristol, VA that shot quarter inch groups while my full house Benchrest rifle was shooting 3 tenths inch. While that was an exception, I can't seem to forget it.

Good Luck!!
 
I think I need to work towards improved consistency

Hi & thanks for taking the time to reply.

My best so far is 4 shots out of 5 at 100 yards measuring .391"

3 shots out of 5 at 300 yards measuring .625"

As I stated my goal is to milk as much accuracy out of this rifle/caliber combination as I can but I don't have a point of reference. Am I expecting too much? Can I get it to shoot a 5 shot group under an inch at 300 yards? That's why I'm hoping to share notes with others who are running this same combination.

The other thing that's driving me crazy is the seating depth. Using 140 gr. Hornady ELD-M, I've tried seating depths (COAL) from 2.820" to 2.856" and I'm not seeing an Ah-Ha! that's the one. Although 2.820" seemed to be off the rifle seems to shoot the Hornady match factory loads pretty darn well even though they measure out to be 2.810" - 2.813". (Using the factory ammo for fouling shots and as a way to familiarize myself with the rifle and build up my inventory of brass). My chamber is 2.866" using the 140 gr. ELD-M and the Hornady O.A.L. Gauge. It's confusing as it seems to shoot 2.830" and 2.850" about the same but not so with a 2.840" COAL?

I do understand that this would never be in the same league as a custom built benchrest but I'd still like to see what it and I can do...
 
PassTheAmmo said:
Hi & thanks for taking the time to reply.

My best so far is 4 shots out of 5 at 100 yards measuring .391"

3 shots out of 5 at 300 yards measuring .625"

As I stated my goal is to milk as much accuracy out of this rifle/caliber combination as I can but I don't have a point of reference. Am I expecting too much? Can I get it to shoot a 5 shot group under an inch at 300 yards? That's why I'm hoping to share notes with others who are running this same combination.

The other thing that's driving me crazy is the seating depth. Using 140 gr. Hornady ELD-M, I've tried seating depths (COAL) from 2.820" to 2.856" and I'm not seeing an Ah-Ha! that's the one. Although 2.820" seemed to be off the rifle seems to shoot the Hornady match factory loads pretty darn well even though they measure out to be 2.810" - 2.813". (Using the factory ammo for fouling shots and as a way to familiarize myself with the rifle and build up my inventory of brass). My chamber is 2.866" using the 140 gr. ELD-M and the Hornady O.A.L. Gauge. It's confusing as it seems to shoot 2.830" and 2.850" about the same but not so with a 2.840" COAL?

I do understand that this would never be in the same league as a custom built benchrest but I'd still like to see what it and I can do...
Click to expand...

I would try even closer to the lands, just touching the lands and different jam lengths.
 
Are you neck turning ? If so to what dimension and which neck tension are you using ?
B T W I have a Savage Tactical in 308 That can shoot in the High 1's @100 if the stars align
Joe P Phoenix
 
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PassTheAmmo said:
...... snip...................
My best so far is 4 shots out of 5 at 100 yards measuring .391"

3 shots out of 5 at 300 yards measuring .625"

As I stated my goal is to milk as much accuracy out of this rifle/caliber combination as I can ............... snip.......................
Click to expand...

You're on the right track. The fastest, cheapest, and easiest way to improve your performance is to count fewer and fewer rounds out of each group. If you only count the best 2 shots out of 5, your MOA will improve dramatically.

All kidding aside, if you're serious about improving accuracy, the steps are many, some steps are tedious, a few require equipment which is expensive enough to make you choke a little bit, and none of it is very easy. However, the details of each procedure are well documented on the Internet. You just need to decide on how serious you want to get and how much money you want to spend. For example, do you really need a $1000 scale or will a $100 scale do just fine? I turn my necks and I weight sort my bullets and cases but I don't weight sort my primers.

But one of the things you MUST do is to become serious about your data gathering. I like to use the very inexpensive software called "ON TARGET". With it you can photograph your target or scan it and then measure your shots using a computer and a mouse. I like to save the data in a spread sheet so I can go back and compare different load recipes. I also write a little log entry for each test session in M.S. Word format using a table to track every aspect of that particular recipe. It looks like this:
2017-10-25_163205.jpg
I also add notes about the reloading procedure and then I add additional information about the results when I return from the range or match.

This works a lot better than a tattered note book. If I find an old load recipe in my spread sheet which performs better than most, I can refer to the M.S. Word log file and find all the information I need to duplicate the load.

There are countless ways to gather, sort, and archive shooting data, including a grubby spiral note book. Develop a procedure which works well for you. If you're just trying to kill one of God's furry creatures, measuring group size with a carpenter's tape or a coin will do. But if you plan to really shoot small groups, you should step up your game a little bit and use more care when gathering data.

And speaking about data gathering, you should count EVERY round, not just the good ones. You will never know how to reach your goal unless you know where you are at the moment. Unless you have a slam fire or unless the round cooks off in a hot chamber, you should count it. When you go to a match, they count all your hits and misses. You should measure and log every test round you fire. The best-three-out-of-five phrase is a punch line from a shooting joke. It should NOT be your way of defining your results and doing so certainly won't guide you down the path to improved precision.
 
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Ok

DanSavage said:
I would try even closer to the lands, just touching the lands and different jam lengths.
Click to expand...

I'll give that a try next. Do I need to worry about excessive pressure spike?

I did have an unusual experience with some seated to 2.850". A few of the rounds did jam into the leade leaving scrape marks only on one side of the bullet and not the other. I brought those back home and mic'ed them and they did measure 2.850" - so the ogive should have cleared the leade. I'm not sure what to make of that.
 
Not yet

classcat said:
Are you neck turning ? If so to what dimension and which neck tension are you using ?
B T W I have a Savage Tactical in 308 That can shoot in the High 1's @100 if the stars align
Joe P Phoenix
Click to expand...

I'm not turning the necks yet (don't have the tool yet. But I'm using a .020" bushing. To what degree does neck turning have on accuracy? I think I may have mentioned that I've noticed that there is sometimes a difference in force required to seat the bullet. So I purchased a Lee Factory Crimp Die thinking that it would provide a more consistent neck tension.

I did load some with and without the use of the Lee Factory Crimp Die to compare the results.
 
Yeah I know...

Mozella said:
You're on the right track. The fastest, cheapest, and easiest way to improve your performance is to count fewer and fewer rounds out of each group. If you only count the best 2 shots out of 5, your MOA will improve dramatically.

All kidding aside, if you're serious about improving accuracy, the steps are many, some steps are tedious, a few require equipment which is expensive enough to make you choke a little bit, and none of it is very easy. However, the details of each procedure are well documented on the Internet. You just need to decide on how serious you want to get and how much money you want to spend. For example, do you really need a $1000 scale or will a $100 scale do just fine? I turn my necks and I weight sort my bullets and cases but I don't weight sort my primers.

But one of the things you MUST do is to become serious about your data gathering. I like to use the very inexpensive software called "ON TARGET". With it you can photograph your target or scan it and then measure your shots using a computer and a mouse. I like to save the data in a spread sheet so I can go back and compare different load recipes. I also write a little log entry for each test session in M.S. Word format using a table to track every aspect of that particular recipe. It looks like this:
View attachment 20205
I also add notes about the reloading procedure and then I add additional information about the results when I return from the range or match.

This works a lot better than a tattered note book. If I find an old load recipe in my spread sheet which performs better than most, I can refer to the M.S. Word log file and find all the information I need to duplicate the load.

There are countless ways to gather, sort, and archive shooting data, including a grubby spiral note book. Develop a procedure which works well for you. If you're just trying to kill one of God's furry creatures, measuring group size with a carpenter's tape or a coin will do. But if you plan to really shoot small groups, you should step up your game a little bit and use more care when gathering data.

And speaking about data gathering, you should count EVERY round, not just the good ones. You will never know how to reach your goal unless you know where you are at the moment. Unless you have a slam fire or unless the round cooks off in a hot chamber, you should count it. When you go to a match, they count all your hits and misses. You should measure and log every test round you fire. The best-three-out-of-five phrase is a punch line from a shooting joke. It should NOT be your way of defining your results and doing so certainly won't guide you down the path to improved precision.
Click to expand...

And if I only count the best single - that would be a one hole group :D (bad attempt at humor)

The issue is that although I'm using a Lead Sled Plus - I'm still not sure if was me or the load. If I have 4 shots that are within a half inch and then the 5th is 2 inches low/left, was it the load or me. I had one shot, now this funny, just as I pulled the trigger a stink bug slammed into the side of my right temple. I have a Hyskore machine rest with the pistons, tie downs, multiple adjustments, remote trigger but 1: It's heavy as hell and 2: I get a crick in my neck from trying to look through the scope. I may have to drag it out so I can completely remove myself as a variable.

I do need to get better at organizing my results and I will take your advice, over the winter, improve my system and that software you suggested is the perfect thing ($35 is dirt cheap for all the features). Thanks for making me aware of it - I'm sure it will help. I could even import the data from the spreadsheet into a database.

But I look at some of my groups and think 'Ok... what happened?'.

I haven't reached your level yet. I'm starting with what I think should have the greatest effect on accuracy and consistency and working my way up through all the nuance. Just working towards it is enjoyable (and frustrating). I'm sad to say that because of my declining health I'll probably never make it to participate in match competition.

Thanks much for your advice and I do appreciate your time. I wish some of you guys lived across the street from me! I did meet a registered benchrest shooter who still competes (at 80 years old) at my club and although we talked I neglected to get his last name and phone number. He actually knows the guy who set the new world's record for small bore 100 yard. If I happen to see him again I'll see if he can mentor me a little.
 
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PassTheAmmo said:
....... snip..............

I do need to get better at organizing my results and I will take your advice, over the winter, improve my system and that software you suggested is the perfect thing ($35 is dirt cheap for all the features). Thanks for making me aware of it - I'm sure it will help. I could even import the data from the spreadsheet into a database.

.......... snip.................
Click to expand...

I take the data calculated by On Target and put it into an Excel worksheet. Then I add other information such as the powder I used, the charge weight, seating depth, MV, ES, SD etc. I often let Excel help me make a graph of something like MOA vs Charge weight. When I go to the range with 5 or 6 different charge weights and shoot 5 shot groups at each charge weight, the graph produces a graphic which is, to me anyway, a lot more revealing than a matrix of numbers. On the same graph I plot Mean Radius because it is more meaningful than MOA, but it's the devil to calculate. Fortunately, On Target does that automatically and for that reason alone it's worth using. Usually I plot the vertical height as well. The three plots are always revealing. Here's an example:
charge weight chart.jpg
As you can see, a charge weight of 102% of max published is obviously the best. I don't know about you, but for me this is a lot better than staring at a bunch of scribbled pencil notes in a spiral bound notebook.

Once I have saved the Excel chart for that test session I copy the information and amalgamate it into one large file for each particular rifle. Then it's easy to see which recipe produces the smallest MOA, to use just one example. By the way, I've developed a formula in an attempt to normalize the MOA so that I can compare three shot groups with five shot groups and/or shots made at 100 yards with shots made at 600 yards, for example. That's what "MOA CORR" means. corrected MOA. The formula is not perfect, but it helps me make sense of my master spread sheet. I can also do things like compare Mean Radius vs date to see if my barrel is wearing out over time. Or, perhaps the groups are getting better over time because my reloading procedure is improving; I doubt if I'm getting better myself, given my age. Anyway, you get the idea.

Once the data is organized you can sort and sift in any way you want to pick the best seating depth for a particular bullet, pick the best powder, pick the best bullet for a particular powder, and so-on. Here's an example of a few rows of my typical spread sheet.
Excel.jpg

All this sounds like a lot of work, but it's actually pretty easy. Once I have a load recipe log in M.S. Word, it's easy enough to make another slightly-different one by simply changing the date, recipe number, and a few factors like powder type. Then I take that sheet to my reloading room to use as a reloading guide. When I return from the range, I add the data I collected along with some notes about weather conditions, etc. and I save that recipe file for later reference. Each batch of ammo gets it's own unique file name/number.

The real value comes when you ask yourself a question like this before making "the really good stuff" for an upcoming match: "I can't get my favorite powder at the moment; therefore, which alternative powder and bullet combination gave me the next-best results in the past 90 days or 180 days, or whatever?" A master Excel work sheet will give you that answer in a snap along with your personal recipe reference number. Using that number, you can recall your M.S. Word notes to find the exact components and procedures you used to make that recipe. Time you invested in logging your details will be paid back in spades compared with trying to answer this question by thumbing through a big stack of old targets filled with bullet holes and scribbled notes.
 
PassTheAmmo said:
I'm not turning the necks yet (don't have the tool yet. But I'm using a .020" bushing. To what degree does neck turning have on accuracy? I think I may have mentioned that I've noticed that there is sometimes a difference in force required to seat the bullet. So I purchased a Lee Factory Crimp Die thinking that it would provide a more consistent neck tension.

I did load some with and without the use of the Lee Factory Crimp Die to compare the results.
Click to expand...

Neck turning is a VERY important step in accuracy.
Uneven neck tension will cause the bullet to exit the cartridge unevenly. When you neck turn the dimensions are even, an uncut case could be out of round as much as one thousand and More
the crimp die will not solve the problem
 
Got it...

Mozella said:
I take the data calculated by On Target and put it into an Excel worksheet. Then I add other information such as the powder I used, the charge weight, seating depth, MV, ES, SD etc. I often let Excel help me make a graph of something like MOA vs Charge weight. When I go to the range with 5 or 6 different charge weights and shoot 5 shot groups at each charge weight, the graph produces a graphic which is, to me anyway, a lot more revealing than a matrix of numbers. On the same graph I plot Mean Radius because it is more meaningful than MOA, but it's the devil to calculate. Fortunately, On Target does that automatically and for that reason alone it's worth using. Usually I plot the vertical height as well. The three plots are always revealing. Here's an example:
View attachment 20207
As you can see, a charge weight of 102% of max published is obviously the best. I don't know about you, but for me this is a lot better than staring at a bunch of scribbled pencil notes in a spiral bound notebook.

Once I have saved the Excel chart for that test session I copy the information and amalgamate it into one large file for each particular rifle. Then it's easy to see which recipe produces the smallest MOA, to use just one example. By the way, I've developed a formula in an attempt to normalize the MOA so that I can compare three shot groups with five shot groups and/or shots made at 100 yards with shots made at 600 yards, for example. That's what "MOA CORR" means. corrected MOA. The formula is not perfect, but it helps me make sense of my master spread sheet. I can also do things like compare Mean Radius vs date to see if my barrel is wearing out over time. Or, perhaps the groups are getting better over time because my reloading procedure is improving; I doubt if I'm getting better myself, given my age. Anyway, you get the idea.

Once the data is organized you can sort and sift in any way you want to pick the best seating depth for a particular bullet, pick the best powder, pick the best bullet for a particular powder, and so-on. Here's an example of a few rows of my typical spread sheet.
View attachment 20208

All this sounds like a lot of work, but it's actually pretty easy. Once I have a load recipe log in M.S. Word, it's easy enough to make another slightly-different one by simply changing the date, recipe number, and a few factors like powder type. Then I take that sheet to my reloading room to use as a reloading guide. When I return from the range, I add the data I collected along with some notes about weather conditions, etc. and I save that recipe file for later reference. Each batch of ammo gets it's own unique file name/number.

The real value comes when you ask yourself a question like this before making "the really good stuff" for an upcoming match: "I can't get my favorite powder at the moment; therefore, which alternative powder and bullet combination gave me the next-best results in the past 90 days or 180 days, or whatever?" A master Excel work sheet will give you that answer in a snap along with your personal recipe reference number. Using that number, you can recall your M.S. Word notes to find the exact components and procedures you used to make that recipe. Time you invested in logging your details will be paid back in spades compared with trying to answer this question by thumbing through a big stack of old targets filled with bullet holes and scribbled notes.
Click to expand...

Logical, concise, and perfect. I think once I get the system up and running and get used to using it, it won't be all that much trouble. I'll order the software and get started. I am very experienced with spread sheets and databases (there are 8 PCs in this house, 4 printers, and stuff I've forgotten about). The data base would allow me to more easily query the data and print reports formatted any which way I need to analyze results.

Yup - That's exactly what I'm doing now - 'trying to answer this question by thumbing through a big stack of old targets filled with bullet holes and scribbled notes'.

I think the biggest problem I'm having right now is neck tension. Any tips on that? I find that for some cases the bullet slides right in - others it takes more force. I also noticed when I de-cap and neck size, some cases grab more on the up-stroke (lowering case) having to use more force. I don't know why that is happening.
 
Ok

classcat said:
Neck turning is a VERY important step in accuracy.
Uneven neck tension will cause the bullet to exit the cartridge unevenly. When you neck turn the dimensions are even, an uncut case could be out of round as much as one thousand and More
the crimp die will not solve the problem
Click to expand...

Time to break out the AMEX... could you suggest a couple good neck turners. I have a trimmer so I'm good there.

I'm not sure yet that my crimp die is having a positive effect - or maybe I'm not using it correctly. Or maybe the neck is out of spec and like you say the crimp die is ineffective?
 
Search 21 CENTURY SHOOTING PRODUCTS . They have complete set-up in your caliber. You will also need a Ball Mic and neck lube. They also have a YouTube video on "HOW TO"


""I think the biggest problem I'm having right now is neck tension. Any tips on that? I find that for some cases the bullet slides right in - others it takes more force. I also noticed when I de-cap and neck size, some cases grab more on the up-stroke (lowering case) having to use more force. I don't know why that is happening.""
What you are feeling is the UNEVENNESS in the necks. NO CONSISTENCY OR UNIFORMITY, and the Crimp is making it worse.

You will also need a few more Neck sizing dies. Those sizes will be determined by the amount you cut the neck. Carbide is the way to go, Bevel side down
 
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Ok

classcat said:
Search 21 CENTURY SHOOTING PRODUCTS . They have complete set-up in your caliber. You will also need a Ball Mic and neck lube. They also have a YouTube video on "HOW TO"


""I think the biggest problem I'm having right now is neck tension. Any tips on that? I find that for some cases the bullet slides right in - others it takes more force. I also noticed when I de-cap and neck size, some cases grab more on the up-stroke (lowering case) having to use more force. I don't know why that is happening.""
What you are feeling is the UNEVENNESS in the necks. NO CONSISTENCY OR UNIFORMITY, and the Crimp is making it worse.

You will also need a few more Neck sizing dies. Those sizes will be determined by the amount you cut the neck. Carbide is the way to go, Bevel side down
Click to expand...

So I should ditch the Lee Crimp tool, right? I'm gonna compare some crimped to no crimp tomorrow and see if there is difference between them and if there is a vertical spread.

And is this what you're talking about for neck turning?
http://www.xxicsi.com/6.5mm.html

Now I'm not sure I understand that I will need a few more neck sizing dies. Are you talking about different sized bushings for my Redding neck sizer? (I always buy carbide or titanium).
 
More $$$

Looks like I'll need a tubing micrometer... any suggestions on a good one that won't break the bank?
 
PassTheAmmo said:
So I should ditch the Lee Crimp tool, right? I'm gonna compare some crimped to no crimp tomorrow and see if there is difference between them and if there is a vertical spread.

*** Shoot them for an education in crimping versus not crimping.

And is this what you're talking about for neck turning
http://www.xxicsi.com/6.5mm.html

***That is the set up i am referring to

Now I'm not sure I understand that I will need a few more neck sizing dies. Are you talking about different sized bushings for my Redding neck sizer? (I always buy carbide or titanium).
Click to expand...

****When you cut the necks you are changing the deminsions. You will probably need 281,282,283,284 to see which works best with your powder and bullet combination.
They also make them in 1/2 sizes in carbide. (REDDING NECK SIZING BUSHINGS) Redding also makes SB Dies (SHORT BASE) I do not know if they have one in your cartridge size, but is WELL WORTH the inquiry. I average 30 firings per case with a PPC before accuracy is lost due to neck fatigue.

MITUTOYO 115-313 Ball Mic (Tube MIC) A great value for the $$$

***
 
PassTheAmmo said:
Looks like I'll need a tubing micrometer... any suggestions on a good one that won't break the bank?
Click to expand...

I love nice tools and I recognize that the Mitutoyo is the "go to" ball micrometer for many reloaders, but I have one of these for a hundred bucks less:

Anytime Tools Tube Micrometer Ball Spherical Anvil 0-1"/0.0001"

Get it on Amazon Prime for thirty eight bucks, free shipping. Works just fine for measuring my neck thickness.
 
Mozella said:
I love nice tools and I recognize that the Mitutoyo is the "go to" ball micrometer for many reloaders, but I have one of these for a hundred bucks less:

Anytime Tools Tube Micrometer Ball Spherical Anvil 0-1"/0.0001"

Get it on Amazon Prime for thirty eight bucks, free shipping. Works just fine for measuring my neck thickness.
Click to expand...



That would depend on the precision that you are looking for. That Ball mic is in my loading bag. I use it to measure case fatigue as i am loading at the range. It gives me good readings but it is not my primary measuring tool. That would be a Neilsen with a Baker Dial indicator 0.0001 -0.2
 
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