Questions about loads and accuracy

B

Buster

Guest
Is rifle accuracy significantly affected when the cartridge is only half-full of powder?

As an example, say I want to shoot a 120gr (or so) bullet at 2100 fps from a 28 Nosler case. I assume the case will be significantly less-than full of powder. Could I still get target practice accuracy under these conditions?

I'd like to ease a newbie into rifle shooting with a custom stocked gun that she can grow with. I'm thinking I would try to transition her to full powered, 160-180gr loads over a 6-8 month period.
 
Well....that lower load could possibly be the most accurate...could be the worst possible as well. Plain truth, I don't think anybody knows. Make sure your lower load is not dangerously low and if it doesn't shoot accurately there just use a bigger target. All you're trying to do is break in a shooter.
 
"All you're trying to do is break in a shooter."

That's an excellent point - thank you.
 
Buster said:
Is rifle accuracy significantly affected when the cartridge is only half-full of powder?

As an example, say I want to shoot a 120gr (or so) bullet at 2100 fps from a 28 Nosler case. I assume the case will be significantly less-than full of powder. Could I still get target practice accuracy under these conditions?

I'd like to ease a newbie into rifle shooting with a custom stocked gun that she can grow with. I'm thinking I would try to transition her to full powered, 160-180gr loads over a 6-8 month period.
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PLEASE don't make up a load using a half-case of powder assuming it's safe.......if the load isn't exactly listed in a loading manual, EVERYTHING from case to primer to powder to bullet do not wing it.

I assume the case will be significantly less-than full of powder.
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This assumption can injure or kill you, or worse, the loved one you're trying to help.

Making up hot loads using too much powder can wreck your rifle and scare you.

Making up light loads using too little can wreck your whole life, permanently.

Incidentally, the 28 Nosler with full power 180gr loads it too much for most men, and as to "working up to it"........??........ I guess if you believe the Shaolin priests actually did toughen up their faces by bashing them into vats of sand until it din't hurt, so they could break boards or blocks with their noses..... go for it.

But that's just me, I think shooting should be FUN, even for gurls...
 
The world of reduced loads, especially in large cases, if fraught with real danger. "I would assume that..." can get your face permanently altered, and your rifle destroyed. There is a thing called secondary explosion effect that can happen when loads are reduced below safe minimums. Some powders tolerate reduced loads better than others. Stick with published data, and I do not mean from some private source on the internet. Beyond that, even if you do manage to figure out a safe load, some of the powders that are used for reduced loads take up so little space that great care is called for so that you do not double charge a case. I have the remnants of a Savage 110 .30-06 that an older fellow was loading cast bullet loads for. He got distracted and put a double or triple load in a case and was very lucky that he had his left hand on the rear sand bag, and glasses on. The stock was destroyed. No one ever found the top half of the front receiver ring, and the barrel was launched a short distance downrange. The case, minus head, is still in the chamber, and the breach end of the barrel is swollen to the point where the barrel nut cannot be screwed off. No one expects these sorts of things, and after they happen it is too late. Way too many shooters think that safety glasses are an unnecessary bother. I have seen the aftermath of enough of these sorts of things to know that they are very wrong. I had the pleasure of teaching my bosses young wife how to shoot a few years back. She probably weighed no more than 120#. I started her with a .22 mag, moved her up to a .222, and then to her final rifle, a light 7mmWSM with a muzzle break. She is a good shot, with no flinch. Instead of using one rifle, use several. It will be a lot safer.
 
28 nosler

My granddaughter has killed two deer with a 223 and she shoots a .22 rimfire for fun, shes in the sixth grade. That 28 nosler will have your new shooter shell shocked in two rounds. Ive never seen one but they've gotta be noisey and kick. Sounds like your gonna try something a little calmer. that would be the way Id go. Doug
 
Another anecdote

A friend blew up a .264 mag working on reduced loads. He kept going lower and lower until he blew it up. Similar to the earlier post here, but the barrel went end over end about 75 yards down range.

I am told that if the powder settles enough in a large case so that the primer spark jumps from back to front, you get ignition from both ends and the pressure waves meet in the middle. That's what makes the catastrophic explosion.

I suppose nobody really knows what goes on in there, but it sounds like a good theory.
 
vtmarmot said:
I am told that if the powder settles enough in a large case so that the primer spark jumps from back to front, you get ignition from both ends and the pressure waves meet in the middle. That's what makes the catastrophic explosion.

I suppose nobody really knows what goes on in there, but it sounds like a good theory.
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You could be correct.

Also, gunpowder does not require outside oxygen to burn. I can see where extra oxygen inside a case might change the powder burn characteristics - as in radically accelerate it.

The question I posed when I opened this thread concerned accuracy.

My second question (which turns out was not necessary) was going to be about safety considerations, because the concept of a half-full case just wasn't sitting well with me :)
 
Dangerous loads ....

Buster, not only COULD they be right .....BUT THEY ARE RIGHT ! The great P.O.Ackley commented on this exact situation 60 years ago. PLEASE GO BY THE BOOKS because you'll never have to say you're sorry to those around you.

Good shooting,Ted
 
Buster said:
My second question (which turns out was not necessary) was going to be about safety considerations, because the concept of a half-full case just wasn't sitting well with me :)
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But the accuracy load for a .38 148gr wadcutter is 2.7 gr of Bullseye and it's nowhere near half a case full. Been shooting that since 1971.
 
adamsgt said:
But the accuracy load for a .38 148gr wadcutter is 2.7 gr of Bullseye and it's nowhere near half a case full. Been shooting that since 1971.
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Ohh just stop.......

Comparing open-topped pistol or shotgun loads with their appropriate burning rates to over-bored bottle-necked rifle rounds using slow powders is comparing apples to orangutans. This is a safety issue not an idle property discussion
 
Here's some interesting info I stumbled onto at hodgdonreloading.com:

You can load a 130gr bullet in 270 Winchester with 60gr of H4831 and get 3000+ fps.

And you can load the same cartridge and bullet with 14gr of Trail Boss and get 1318 fps.

There are obviously ways to safely reduce loads, but trial and error is not the best way to get there.
 
alinwa said:
Ohh just stop.......

Comparing open-topped pistol or shotgun loads with their appropriate burning rates to over-bored bottle-necked rifle rounds using slow powders is comparing apples to orangutans. This is a safety issue not an idle property discussion
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Al, I wasn't doing such a comparison. He made a general statement "the concept of a half full case just wasn't sitting well with me". He didn't qualify that in any way. I was merely pointing out that there are situations in which that isn't necessarily true.
 
Buster said:
You could be correct.

Also, gunpowder does not require outside oxygen to burn. I can see where extra oxygen inside a case might change the powder burn characteristics - as in radically accelerate it.

The question I posed when I opened this thread concerned accuracy.

My second question (which turns out was not necessary) was going to be about safety considerations, because the concept of a half-full case just wasn't sitting well with me :)
Click to expand...

Gun powder does not burn in the sense of using ANY oxygen (oxidation).

Nitrocellulose rapidly changes from a solid to hot gasses.

As the pressure rises the rate of breakdown rises.

The 'burning' part occurs After the fact since the hot gasses are extremely reactive.

Oxidation is to slow to make much difference.
 
I have heard from some very good shooters in Fort Benning
area to not go below 2.6 on powder Bulleye /Accurate 2/ tite group
in the 38 because it can have the same explosion effect .Known to blow top off
S&W. Please Be Careful
 
dnal said:
I have heard from some very good shooters in Fort Benning
area to not go below 2.6 on powder Bulleye /Accurate 2/ tite group
in the 38 because it can have the same explosion effect .Known to blow top off
S&W. Please Be Careful
Click to expand...

Yeah, I usually shoot it closer to 2.9. Anyway, it does it make it easier to double charge a case, which I did once. Blew the extractor off my S&W Model 52 which hit me above my right eye. Never did that again.
 
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