Problem for a Mathmatician and Experimenter

K

kansasvet

Guest
I'll start by saying that this is something that I have heard of and never seen.

It was stated by a fellow that if you suspend a balloon on a two foot string at 25 yds. range and shoot at it with a .44 Mag. revolver that you will never hit it.
The theory is that a shock wave preceeding the bullet will move the balloon so the bullet will not hit it.
If this is true wouldn't it have to be a subsonic velocity bullet?
It would be an interesting experiment for someone with access to an indoor range. I live in Western Kansas and it seems the wind even blows indoors out here.
 
High speed camera.

Just set up a high speed camera, and start shootin'. The pics will tell the tale.
 
With the way most handguns shoot, that balloons pretty safe even if the bullets are supersonic. And maybe even VLD's. :D
 
Years ago when my eyes could actually see revolver sights, the local club used to have novelty shoots - candles, balloons, clay birds, etc. We used 22LR, 38SPL, 45ACP, and 44MAG.

We always thought the misses were due to poor shooting ability. Now we know better.:rolleyes::cool::D

Ray
 
I don't think so, the balloon would have to be accelerated at impossible rates (for a balloon anyway).

Say the bullet is moving at 1000 fps (several hundred fps slow for a 44 mag BTW). Speed of sound is 1116 fps at sea level. Shock wave can't get to the balloon faster than .067 seconds at which time the bullet is 7.8 feet away and will arrive in .0078 seconds.

Assuming the balloon is 12 inches in diameter, it will have to be moved 1/2 foot in .0078 seconds. Calculating displacement given acceleration is 1/2AT^2 (A=acceleration, T=time). So 1/2A= .5/.0078^2. The answer in in fps per second, divide by 32 to convert to gees.

The balloon would have to accelerate at over 500 gees. Don't think that will happen.
 
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When I was a kid, someone told me that you could not shoot through a silk scarf hanging in front of a revolver.
Sounds like a variant of the same idea. I never tried it, didn't know anybody with a silk scarf.
 
Directly in front of the barrel I could see since the pressure wave could blow it out of the way. I doubt the balloon could move before the bullet hit though. Guess I have an experiment to try.
 
Not exactly on the topic, but I'd be willing to bet that the muzzle blast would have dissipated before it reached 25 yards. It's only gas with a few particles that are spreading and slowing pretty rapidly from the time they leave the muzzle.
 
hmmmm

If a train 300 cars long leaves Chicago at noon on Sunday and the caboose gets struck by lighting,
how long will it take to kill the driver?

Assuming of course that he is a good "conductor"

The bullet gets there first - if the "shock wave" was going fast enough to beat the bullet it would pop the balloon anyway wouldn't it?
 
ScottD said:
If a train 300 cars long leaves Chicago at noon on Sunday and the caboose gets struck by lighting,
how long will it take to kill the driver?

Assuming of course that he is a good "conductor"

The bullet gets there first - if the "shock wave" was going fast enough to beat the bullet it would pop the balloon anyway wouldn't it?
Click to expand...

Hi Scott

It would pop the balloon before the shock wave imparted an acceleration of 500 gees, that's for sure.
 
Jay said:
When I was a kid, someone told me that you could not shoot through a silk scarf hanging in front of a revolver.
Sounds like a variant of the same idea. I never tried it, didn't know anybody with a silk scarf
Click to expand...
We were told that you couldn't shoot a spring air rifle pellet thru a hanging sheet at 10 feet. It turned out to be correct, but didn't my mother give me hell for the diablo skid marks on the laundry. :p
 
Pal, it's more like your pal was an ultra bad shot. At least he had a good excuse for it. Rad
 
The fellow relating the story is not my pal. I try not to get caught hanging around with blow-hards. I passed the story on because I had never heard it before and did not want to make a fool of myself trying it but wondered if anyone else had heard it.
 
You know what kansasvet??? I live on a range. I have children. We have balloons. We have 44mags, both conventional and AutoMag, and we have total privacy........

I'll try to get out and shoot me some balloons next week.

I'll also shoot some Aught-Six into some toilet paper rolls, some shotguns at some silk hankies and some steel jackets into the pond.


Well, I'll try to get to the balloon thing ennyhoo ;)

al
 
alinwa said:
You know what kansasvet??? I live on a range. I have children. We have balloons. We have 44mags, both conventional and AutoMag, and we have total privacy........

I'll try to get out and shoot me some balloons next week.

I'll also shoot some Aught-Six into some toilet paper rolls, some shotguns at some silk hankies and some steel jackets into the pond.


Well, I'll try to get to the balloon thing ennyhoo ;)

al
Click to expand...

Alinwa,
Thank you very much for trying the experiment.
I at one time shot much more than I do now, I was a happy bachelor living in the country and had a bench set up in the garage and target frames 100 and 200 yds. away. I would raise the garage door hang targets and start blasting. I had plans to go out to six hundred yards, then I got married???
I still have the land and house but my wife's son and family live there, was I stupid?
It is about 35 miles from where I live now and takes a lot of planning to go shoot, usually dead calm when I leave and 20 to 30 MPH winds when I get there. If it is too windy to shoot target I shoot prarie dogs, my tenant wanted to poison them till he found out they had more value to me than the rent he pays. Amazing, none of his cows have broken a leg in a hole like he envisioned.
 
kansasvet said:
I'll start by saying that this is something that I have heard of and never seen.

It was stated by a fellow that if you suspend a balloon on a two foot string at 25 yds. range and shoot at it with a .44 Mag. revolver that you will never hit it.
The theory is that a shock wave preceeding the bullet will move the balloon so the bullet will not hit it. If this is true wouldn't it have to be a subsonic velocity bullet?
Click to expand...

Tere's no way in hell that a balloon will jump out of the way or that the bullet won't break the balloon whether its subsonic or supersonic at 25 yards. If it's subsonic there is no significant muzzle blast shockwave at 25 yards and only a slight bulllet shock wave if it's close to transonic. if the bullet is supersonic the bullet gets there at the same time as the bullet's shcokwave and well ahead of the muzzle blast. For any normal load, bullet weight, and barrel length a bullet from a 44 Mag pistol will be supersonic at 25 yards.

The poster ddin't state the diameter of the balloon but I'll assme for simplicty it's 1 foot. If a 1 foot diameter balloon on a two foot sttring is blowing around randomly at 25 yads it should be hit about once out of 25 shots if you just shoot randomly near the teather. That's a lot more frequently than never.

The time of flight for a 44 magnum at 25 yards is about 1/20 of a second. There are plenty of shooters who can regularly print under 1 foot groups at 25 yards with a 44 magnum. Thats nearly 50 MOA! I'd expect an "NRA Expert" shooter to break the balloon about 50% of the shots even with a breeze blowing the balloon around..

The idea of the shot blowing the balloon out of the way reminded of a guy I knew about 20 years ago who said he'd been told by a friend "who knew about firearms" that if you held your finger thghtly over the barrel of a pistol the air pressure would push your finger out of the path before the bullet arrives. He then said one night he was drunk and told the finger story to some other "friends" who dared him he prove it. He said he was drunk enough tthat he though it would work. I might not have believed his tale was true just from hearing it but he was missing the end of his left index finger and his wife confirmed it by saying "Yes the f...ing idiiot did it. I had to take him to the hospital". The gun was his own 45 ACP MAC-10.
 
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Sheet of paper.

If you couldn't hit a balloon with a 44 mag at 25 yards due to the "shock wave", then I assume that you wouldn't be able to shoot through a flimsy piece of paper, suspended only by the top edge either. Yet, your same buddy wouldn't suggest that he couldn't fire a 44 mag through a sheet of paper hanging by the top edge at 7 yards, or 10 yards, or 15 yards, or 25 yards, would he? How does he suppose that all of these indoor shooting ranges remain open, when no one is able to shoot a bullet through a piece of paper hanging from a couple of clips?

I spent a good part of the day on Saturday shooting bullets through flimsy pieces of paper suspended by metal clips. It may sound impossible to do, but there were a lot of other guys there doing the same thing.

SteveM.
 
other than the balloon who gives a damn?????

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,
DD
 
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