Pointing tools - What's the deal?

John Kielly

Shari's fan club
I do most of my shooting at 1000 to 1200 yards with the standard .308 Winchester cartridge, so projectile efficiency is important to me. I've tried meplat trimming, but to get a clean point on a 210 grain VLD costs me a sight more than the 5% loss of BC that at least one commercial proponent of the process claims.

Recently, my attention was drawn to the Whidden bullet pointing die system. The pictures look promising & the claims appeal, but I'm reluctant to spend all those dollars for another device that turns out ot be a white elephant. There's also the thought in the back of my mind that surely the one calibre die won't point a 200 grain MK with the same seamless(?) slippery tip as it will the Sierra or Berger 210 grain VLD & these are the projectiles that I shoot regularly.

Has anybody had experience with this or a similar home user pointing tool? Has it worked for you? Any particular benefits, useful hints or concerns that you've experienced?

thanks

John
 
trimming and pointing

John,

What's the matter, didn't you think anyone would be able to help you over on the LR forum?? Just kidding, I think I can help you.

Here are my experiences with the bullet pointing die:

The bullet is supported at the base and pushed up into a cone shaped 'insert' in the die to squeeze the meplat down in diameter. The cone angle seems to be a design compromise intended to fit somewhere between tangent and secant ogive, which makes it optimal for neither (as you eluded). The result is a 'step' from the tip to the ogive. This feature is not appealing to the eye, but does achieve the desired effect, albeit, not as good as a smooth junction would. I fully expect shooter to begin experimenting with different shaped inserts matched to specific bullet ogives since the one size doesn't fit all (very well).

Another problem is with uniformity. With meplat trimming, you can achieve uniform meplat diameters because the cutter is indexed off the ogive. This may result in different bullet OAL, but that's less critical than non-uniform meplat. The pointing tool is effectively 'indexed' from the bullet base, which means that longer bullets are pointed more than shorter bullets. With the length variation that' s typical of the long bullets (like 200 and 210 gr .30 cal's), this can lead to a visual difference in meplat diameters. The tool would have to be adjusted for each bullet (not practical) to achieve absolutely uniform meplat.

Now that all the negative stuff is out of the way, I'll say that overall, I believe the process is worthwhile, and I do point my Berger 155 VLD's for Palma, and my Berger 180 VLD's for 'any rifle'. The variation in meplat diameter that I spoke about with the longer bullets is not really a big problem. For example, before pointing, meplat diameters may range from .068" to .072". After pointing, they may range from .055" to .059". Even though it's still .004" variation, look at the percentages (percentage of tip diameter to caliber). Originally, the variation was 22 to 23%, after pointing, it's 18 to 19% (for a .30 caliber bullet). The variation is still the same, but the average is lower. Pointing also rounds off the rough edges sometimes found near the tips. As far as improving uniformity goes, it might make an improvement, but it's not as effective at uniforming as meplat trimming is.

The real reason to employ this practice is for what you were talking about, increasing BC. I've been doing a lot of serious testing of late in this area using acoustic sensors for time of flight at long range and have been making very repeatable measurements (+/- 1% of BC testing the same bullet type on multiple days). My measurements indicate that the improvement in BC is real, but not as significant (10%) as Mr. Whiddon claims. For a .30 caliber VLD, for meplats pointed from .070" down to .053", a BC increase of 4% was measured. Before you scoff at this, the effect at 1200 yards is: 18" less drop, 6" less wind drift, and 44 fps more remaining velocity for a 210 grain .308 bullet fired at 2600 fps. Although not 10% improvement, the effect is very real.

The amount that you can point the bullet depends on the jacket thickness at the tip. Obviously you can't point to smaller than 2x the jacket thickness. If the tips are small to begin with, you can't effect them very much. If you have some bullets with thin jackets and large tip diameters, these are the ones that stand the most to gain from pointing.

The tool is expensive, no doubt. But once you get the tool adjusted for length (easy with some practice) the process is the quickest and most painless reloading step there is. I can knock out 100 in less than 10 minutes without rushing.

Conclusion:
Point for BC, trim for uniformity. Which of these is most important to you depends on your particular discipline. Most shooters on this BR forum will probably favor trimming over pointing because of the difference between BR and prone shooting.

Good luck,
-Bryan
 
Bryan --

Thanks for the info!!!! Great read!!!

I trim off the base in lathe (with a collet holding the bullet). Reason being, I made a "giz" to measure ogive to tip, and find more variance there then I do base to ogive.
After trimming tips and re-measuring, the numbers come out more uniformed when trimming off the base verses the ogive. For me any how!!!

I have no experience with pointing........ and for a while now, have been on some Berger's that are like perfect! and don't need anything.

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
 
A small test of the pointing die.

06-18-2007 600 yards. Sacramento 85 degrees.
.

Bullet – Powder –Loaded OAL --Group size
Sierra ------ 47.5 --- 2.795” ------ 3.875”
Sierra ------ 47.5 --- 2.795” ------ 2.176” --- Points closed up
B-VLD ---- 46.5 --- 2.892” ------ 3.140” ------------------------- four shots in 1.005”
B-VLD ---- 46.5 --- 2.892” ------ 5.422” --- Points closed up
B-VLD ---- 47.0 --- 2.892” ------ 2.484”
B-VLD ---- 47.0 --- 2.892” ------ 5.437” --- Points closed up

The Whidden pointing die decreased the Sierra 155s group size in the 600 yard testing, but increased the group size when closing the Berger 155s VLD’s.
 
What's the matter, didn't you think anyone would be able to help you over on the LR forum??
Shhh, Bryan, they don't know I shoot 1000 yard bench too.

Thanks for the information, guys. I thinks I have a case to take to the Director of Finance.

John
 
A small test of the pointing die.

06-18-2007 600 yards. Sacramento 85 degrees.
.

Bullet – Powder –Loaded OAL --Group size
Sierra ------ 47.5 --- 2.795” ------ 3.875”
Sierra ------ 47.5 --- 2.795” ------ 2.176” --- Points closed up
B-VLD ---- 46.5 --- 2.892” ------ 3.140” ------------------------- four shots in 1.005”
B-VLD ---- 46.5 --- 2.892” ------ 5.422” --- Points closed up
B-VLD ---- 47.0 --- 2.892” ------ 2.484”
B-VLD ---- 47.0 --- 2.892” ------ 5.437” --- Points closed up

The Whidden pointing die decreased the Sierra 155s group size in the 600 yard testing, but increased the group size when closing the Berger 155s VLD’s.

I have only tested the point up tool with the 7mm 180 bergers but had the same respective results as above with the bergers. Ron Tilley
 
metplat trimming?

Anybody doing this along with the pointing up process?
 
First off, I want to thank Bryan for sharing his information on the pointing die. He certainly has more knowledge and access to tools to measure what happens down range than just about anybody else. I appreciate his reporting what he has measured.

I'd like to clear up just one detail. We do not report a 10% increase in BC as compared to bullets out of the box. Our less scientific testing has shown about a 5% increase in BC as compared to box-stock bullets.

If you are trimming meplats, you are giving up about 5% in BC, as compared to box stock bullets. Therefore, the pointing will give you about a 10% increase in performance over trimmed bullets. Please understand that these numbers are rounded figures based on testing of all calibers, and do not represent hair splitting detail of any one bullet.

On another note, it has been interesting to get a number of these dies in people's hands and see what results they come up with. For folks starting with bullets with big meplats, we look like a hero. For those starting with small meplats already, we don't do nearly as much.

I point my own bullets and then trim about .004" off the tip, measuring from base to tip.

Thanks for the chance to clear up some confusion.
 
Tests

Hi all, At end 2002 when 1st started trimming the bullet tips i tried to repoint the tip(meplat), this was worse in the performance in regards to the group size and the vertical dispersion .. the bullet just pulled from the packet was better than a fully checked and qualified bullet that had been repointed so i did not experiment further.. I then tried cutting the tips so that each projectile had exactly the same AOL and the same meplat diameter , this produced the best groups the rifle had ever shot ..To say this was a lot of work is an understatement.. Testing a fully checked and qualified batch compared to the bullets that had the tips cut and fully qualified showed it was hard in most circumstances to tell the difference .. This is in a gun that at that point would shoot under 2 inchs of vertical at 1000yds for a 5 shot group and under 4 inchs for a 10 shot group in good conditions..I have for some time done what just about everyone else does ,that is qualify and just trim the meplats ..JR..Jeff Rogersps pic of cut tips
 

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John,

FWIW here's my current method of dealing with large or non-uniform meplats :

I have made some loading blocks to suit projectiles i.e. the holes are just above calibre size. I firstly sort and batch the projectiles on base to ogive, then put each batch point up in a block (100 bullets at a time). This enables them to be easily scanned and compared (with the aid of a magnifier if it helps) , and all those with large or "ugly" meplats removed. The remaining projectiles (usually more than 50%) with smaller uniform meplats are considered to be the "cream" - they would probably benefit little from either pointing or trimming. The others are uniformed with a meplat trimmer, and those that uniform well are considered as good for important matches too, particularly for the shorter F-Class ranges I shoot. Those that are still "ugly" after trimming are culled for non-critical use.

While the above method is somewhat of a compromise, it is highly likely to eliminate the projectiles at the extremes of the BC range, without much cost in time or equipment.

Alan
 
John,
Thanks for clearing up the 10% thing. I wasn't trying to make you look bad, I simply misunderstood exactly what the advertised 10% improvement was compared to.

Are you, or anyone you know working on different shapes of inserts for the pointing die? The piece is small enough, it could be easily interchanged. However I know it's not easy to machine such a small pointy shape inside the insert.

I've shared my experiences with the pointing die on multiple forums. I've been sold on it from the beginning. Even though I don't hold back with the negative points, overall I think it's a great idea and a more attractive alternative to meplat trimming.

Thanks for bringing a great tool to the market. I know it wasn't easy with all the litigation and what not:rolleyes:

Take care,
-Bryan
 
I have done some testing along these lines. You are correct that the difficulty is in cutting the shape you want in the die. I am interested in working on shapes and will PM or email you. Thanks for the input.
 
John asks:

"Has anybody had experience with this or a similar home user pointing tool? Has it worked for you? Any particular benefits, useful hints or concerns that you've experienced?"

Believe Bryan....he tells it like it is.

I have fired about 800 6.5 Berger 130 VLD's in competition after pointing (and they had Very good points... and only .002" base to ogive variation... to begin with). At 1000y, impacts are 10" higher. "Apparent/estimated" horizontal improvement about 5".

My biggest concern is that everybody will get one.


Frank
F-Class HM
 
The precision of a meplat has a bit to do with how the jacket mouth is trimmed in production.
Lathe trimmed jackets will produce a more even meplat than pinch trimmed jackets.
Attached photo shows two hunting bullets with self lathe trimmed jackets that have good even meplat shape.
 

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Just for the record

In all my testing during development of my meplat trimmer, reduction in BC averaged 3%. If you have a higher number then you're trimming more than is needed. Clean up 75% of the meplat and you will take care of 95% of the problem.


Dave
 
Dave,
In some of the previous posts they described a trimmer that changed the shape of the ogive . I am not sure I like this idea.
Kind of defeats the purpose of an expensive precision point forming die.
Maybe they are using it wrong?
 
J Valentine

With all the crazy folds and cracks on the ogive I don't know how you could machine a fine/smaller meplat. Some crazy folds and flaps show up when your just trimming the meplat. All I'm looking for when I trim meplats is a uniform BC. I want accuracy first and foremost. A 3% reduction in BC is nothing compared to .027 variation in BC from bullet to bullet.


Dave
 
Closing meplats . . .

JV:

In looking at the pictures of the custom bullets, here is how you can close the meplats much more. First, the meplats in your pictures are very uniform and also very large, i.e., you may enjoy very fine accuracy at the cost of reduced BC. You can have both.

When I have a meplat that large, especially on .30 cal and .338 projectiles, I uniform the inside of the meplat in a mini lathe built for me by Ferris Pindell. In uniforming the ID of the meplats, the very thick jacket is thinned with a reverse cone shape. Then when I close the already very uniform AND thinned meplats, I can close them as small as I want. There are a few tricks involved, but it is an otherwise easy task.

Good shooting,
Jim Hardy
 
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