Newbie needs advice

S

southj

Guest
I am a longtime skeet shooter who just started shooting benchrest. At this point I'm not interested in competition. I would like to have a rifle built that will shoot better than my capabilities at 100 to 300 yards. Right now I have a Cooper .223 but I want a custom gun. I have learned from my experiences shooting shotgun sports that I would have saved a lot of money if I had just bought top tier equipment at the outset instead of trading my way up.

I want a caliber that I don't have to reload for and does not recoil badly. I may reload later on but I plan to shoot factory ammo initially. I am considering 223 or 6mmBR.....any feedback on these choices would be appreciated.

Read a lot about Panda actions by Kelblys , Krieger barrels, and Jewell triggers which all look like they should be on my wish list. Would it not make sense to have Kelblys build the rifle since I would be using their action?

I have lots of questions that I don't have the experience to answer :

Caliber
LV or HV
Barrel length
Neck size


Any help would be appreciated knowing I just want to shoot 100 to 300 yards for fun but I want the best equipment that I can get.
 
Personally I would hate to see anyone go full out and have Kelbys build a competition gun and chamber it in a cartridge that won't do the rifle justice.
Personally I would not do .223 for competition you will get worn out keep your cooper.
6br will do great for 300-600 yards. Factory loaded ammo for it can be hard to find.

You are talking about LV and HV barrels. So it leads me to think you may want to compete in a registered match or at least at a club match observing the rules. 100-300 yard competition is dominated by 6ppc.
So unless you want to be competing for last place all the time. Take up reloading and have Kelbys build you a nice 6ppc with a weight system in the stock.

If you need to save a little money check out the classifieds here there are usually some nice rigs to be had at a 25% or more savings
JMHO

Nice one here
http://benchrest.com/class/index.php?a=2&b=6970
 
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Caliber is dead easy....... in fact the whole CHAMBERING is a no-brainer........ just get a 6PPC




period



I would buy a used 6PPC from one of the big-name makers, Bob White at shooters Corner or right here in the Classifieds.


There are a ton of great deals in the Classifieds right now. Some I want to buy....

al
 
+1 to alinwa's advice

Incidentally, the rifle dictates capability - not the shooter. There's never been a rifle that is better than your capability. Never stop looking for it though and enjoy the search.
 
Yeah, 6PPC, except for one of his requirements:

I want a caliber that I don't have to reload for.... I may reload later on but I plan to shoot factory ammo initially.
Click to expand...

I don't believe there is any factory loaded 6PPC. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a benchrest shooter who doesn't reload. Once you realize no rifle has any kind of "accuracy capability" without tuning it, reloading kinda becomes essential.

Maybe hire some one to reload for you? I've never head of this before, but in a free market economy...

In which case, I'd recommend score-flavored benchrest -- they preload, whereas 90% percent of group shooters feel the load may change during the day as a part of "keeping in tune" so they load at the range.
 
Instant Gratification ???

MHO....You'll miss a lot of good times and fun. I recommend you learn to reload first. The tools will be the same at every level of you're intended perfection. Enjoy reloading for your Cooper223 and wring the best out of it that you can. Then and only then should you go custom on a top grade rifle and all the accessories necessary to support your enjoyment. Good luck!

Ted
 
SouthJ

I think there is more to your question than some of the answers you have receive here on BRC.
I did not see you put what area you live in or how far you may live from a range that holds Benchrest matches. I would suggest that you attend one or two matches and you will find that the majority of the shooters will be more than helpful to answer your questions.
You may find one or two of the shooters that may live close enough to you that you could ask them to mentor you and help you through the beginning stages in group shooting.
You don’t have to buy the most expensive equipment but find good quality made and you will not have to buy or replace anytime soon. There are times when some shooters (most all) have more than one/two reloading equipment and will sell some of it for a fair price ( a lot of us will work on this to help a new shooter).
One piece of advice is if you shoot this sport to have a good time and make new friends and don’t have to be #1 and win a trophy every time you will enjoy this sport for a long time. A lot of us that have shot this sport for a long time have won and lost a lot.
There is a lot of information and question you should accumulate before you start buying a rifle or loading equipment. Buying pre loaded ammo will not help you enjoy the fun of trying to shoot small groups.

If I can be of any help answering any of your questions or concerns let me know.

Tom Libby
tomnbrsa@outlook.com
Southwest Director
 
southj said:
I'm not interested in competition.

I would like to have a rifle built that will shoot better than my capabilities at 100 to 300 yards.

Right now I have a Cooper .223 but I want a custom gun.

I want a caliber that I don't have to reload for and does not recoil badly.

I may reload later on but I plan to shoot factory ammo initially.

I am considering 223 or 6mmBR.....any feedback on these choices would be appreciated.

I just want to shoot 100 to 300 yards for fun but I want the best equipment that I can get.
Click to expand...

Here's a thought.

Have Jim Kelbly build you a 223 with a minimum-chamber no-turn neck that could later be converted, with a new chambered barrel, for a 6PPC [.268", .263", .262"] turned neck, and a new bolt/bolt face.

Or

have him build you a 6mmBr, again with a minimum-chamber no-turn neck, which can easily be converted with a new chambered barrel [new bolt face not required] for the 30BR with a .330" turned neck. [The parent case for the 30BR is the 6mmBR.]

Personally, I'd opt for the 6mmBR that can easily be converted to the 30BR, knowing what I know now, since I own both [6PPC & 30BR] and have gone to using the 30BR for both SCORE and GROUP shooting.

P.S. Shilen carries barrels in a variety of chamber sizes for both the 223 and 6mmBr: http://www.shilen.com/chambers.html
 
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Tom Libby said:
SouthJ

I think there is more to your question than some of the answers you have receive here on BRC.
I did not see you put what area you live in or how far you may live from a range that holds Benchrest matches. I would suggest that you attend one or two matches and you will find that the majority of the shooters will be more than helpful to answer your questions.
You may find one or two of the shooters that may live close enough to you that you could ask them to mentor you and help you through the beginning stages in group shooting.
You don’t have to buy the most expensive equipment but find good quality made and you will not have to buy or replace anytime soon. There are times when some shooters (most all) have more than one/two reloading equipment and will sell some of it for a fair price ( a lot of us will work on this to help a new shooter).
One piece of advice is if you shoot this sport to have a good time and make new friends and don’t have to be #1 and win a trophy every time you will enjoy this sport for a long time. A lot of us that have shot this sport for a long time have won and lost a lot.
There is a lot of information and question you should accumulate before you start buying a rifle or loading equipment. Buying pre loaded ammo will not help you enjoy the fun of trying to shoot small groups.

If I can be of any help answering any of your questions or concerns let me know.

Tom Libby
tomnbrsa@outlook.com
Southwest Director
Click to expand...


As you say you have learned from experience you would have saved a lot of money if you purchased top tier equipment, another thing you said is that at this point you aren't interested in competition.

Tom's advice is the best bit of advice I've read in this thread, especially the bit about attending a match or two before buying anything (wish that advice had been given before I started buying a rifle and other equipment, would've saved a bunch of money).
If you may be interested in competition in the future and that competition is LV - HV Benchrest shooting then a rifle in 6PPC would be the one to buy, with most of the target calibers it is essential to reload to get the accuracy required.

I'm pretty sure if you attend a match someone, if there is time at the end of the day will let you sit behind their rifle, try their equipment and shoot a group.

The best advice you will ever receive is from a competitor who actually shoots, not a keyboard shooter, I know Tom is a good person to listen too as I met him at WBC in Australia a few weeks ago........Ian
 
Charles E said:
Yeah, 6PPC, except for one of his requirements:



I don't believe there is any factory loaded 6PPC. In fact, I don't think I've ever met a benchrest shooter who doesn't reload. Once you realize no rifle has any kind of "accuracy capability" without tuning it, reloading kinda becomes essential.

Maybe hire some one to reload for you? I've never head of this before, but in a free market economy...

In which case, I'd recommend score-flavored benchrest -- they preload, whereas 90% percent of group shooters feel the load may change during the day as a part of "keeping in tune" so they load at the range.
Click to expand...


Ahhhh, I missed that, thanks Charles :)

bummer

Well, you're getting some good help from others,
al
 
Newbie

I am primarily a shotgun shooter who shoots clay targets two or three days a week..12 to 18 boxes a week. To feed that habit takes quite a bit of time to reload. I would prefer not to add another hobby that requires reloading but it is not out of the question. I don't see me fire forming brass for PPC or trimming necks. I see me going to the range which is 50 miles away with my buddies once or twice a month and shooting 50+ shells .


Will Bruno have the patience to give a neophyte some guidance ?

Thanks to everyone for your feedback.....
 
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Like Tom said, if it is feasible, go to a couple of matches, before you buy anything. A lot of fellows seem to think that it's the rifle, when in reality it's the whole system, rifle, scope, ammo, rest and bags, flags and some coaching. If you expect to come up with the finest accuracy by buying a rifle and feeding it factory ammo, depending on your accuracy expectations, you are very likely to be disappointed. I run into this all the time, fellows who want the results, have the money, are smart enough, but don't want to be bothered with the details. The accuracy comes from the details.
 
Ian_Owen said:
... The best advice you will ever receive is from a competitor who actually shoots, not a keyboard shooter, I know Tom is a good person to listen too as I met him at WBC in Australia a few weeks ago........Ian
Click to expand...

Yes, and the worst advice you will receive will come from someone who actually competes. We've all been to matches where there will be 3-4-5 guys discussing something, giving advice, and it's all absolute nonsense.

The better "keyboard shooters" will just repeat what's in Tony Boyer's (or Mike Ratigan's or Glenn Newicks) books & pretend it is their own. You could get worse information. Of course, the worst keyboard shooters are just like those guys at the matches who repeat old wives tales and offer technical solutions that have no merit.

Now, if you could go to the WBC, you could talk to anybody. Those guys are so good, and (with reason) so confident, they'll even say "I don't know" when they don't know.

By all means, go to several matches. See what it is about, get the feel of benchrest shooting. Someone probably will let you shoot their rifle. As far as advice goes, at first (& second & third), you'll have no way of knowing whats pepper and what's fly specks. Same as with skeet shooting. You'll change your mind about equipment several times over the years, same as with skeet.

Benchrest isn't going to come any faster or cheaper than skeet. For me, it came slower. Be honest about what you want out of it, & go from there.

Good luck to you,

Charles Ellertson
 
If you don't want to load you cannot have a rifle that is even close to competitive or maybe a rimfire bench rest rifle.
 
Advice

Charles E said:
Yes, and the worst advice you will receive will come from someone who actually competes. We've all been to matches where there will be 3-4-5 guys discussing something, giving advice, and it's all absolute nonsense.

Charles Ellertson
Click to expand...



My observations about advice given/recieved at actual matches are a little different. Correct advice is relative. If you ask the same question of ten different people, you will get ten different answers. It doesn’t mean that these answers are wrong. The advice shared by ten different people is what they feel works in their setups. Its the nature of the Sport. The only downside is,trying to sort through all the advice. It can be confusing to a “New to the Sport” Competitor. Many people develop/discover their own way of achieving success in this Sport. I have noticed that Most people listens to the guys who win or have a reputation for winning. Ian Owen is correct in his suggestion about seeking advice from actual competitors. “You simply can't teach a person how to Bat if you never played Baseball”

When I was brand new to the Sport,I got advice from a well known decorated competitor(Mentor) with years of actual experience in Competition. In the process of learning the basics,I learned a lot about some of the people who made the Sport what it is today, from a mentor who actually competed with some of the best in the game. In my opinion,thats the advantage of listening to an actual competitor as opposed to keyboard hearsay.


Glenn
 
The original poster, southj, has stated his goal is to meet with his buddies a couple times a month and shoot/compete. I would take into consideration the equipment those buddies will be bringing. If they are shooting factory rifles in various caliber sand someone shows up with a full custom Benchrest rifle and blows them away.....well, this has happened at many clubs before and generally tends to bring out a slew of new rules and suddenly you're gun isn't allowed anymore. Something to consider.
 
alinwa said:
Caliber is dead easy....... in fact the whole CHAMBERING is a no-brainer........ just get a 6PPC




period



I would buy a used 6PPC from one of the big-name makers, Bob White at shooters Corner or right here in the Classifieds.


There are a ton of great deals in the Classifieds right now. Some I want to buy....

al
Click to expand...


YES YES YES............... Yes.

Forget the factory loading.......... Yes, a .222 can give a PPC a run............. BUT.. There IS a reason VERY few compete today with one.

SouthJ, you WILL experience the "shoot's better than me" and you will LEARN to shoot small AKA With Accuracy and Precision...................... Now a 30BR will too ... BUT the bullet availability now and quite possible for some time will limit your shooting.......... 6mm too can be tough to get but NOT near as the SR 30cal bullets...

But if ya must do a chambering that is "factory loaded" then the Duce .222 or a .223 or even a .308........... Still...PPC my Friend.
cale
 
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Question

Can you buy brass for the PPC that has already been formed or do you need to fire form it in your barrel ?
 
You can buy

southj said:
Can you buy brass for the PPC that has already been formed or do you need to fire form it in your barrel ?
Click to expand...

Prepped brass from Hoehn Supply at just about any neck diameter you wish. It does have to be fire formed, but you will be doing that as you work up a load.

TANSTAAFL

David
 
Norma the just turn..

southj said:
Can you buy brass for the PPC that has already been formed or do you need to fire form it in your barrel ?
Click to expand...

NORMA........... The Norma 6ppc brass I have just tried in a new Krieger was about .002 short on head space... So it'll work in most ppc chambers, just a touch a head space on that first shot... Now.... It's neck diameter, unless you have (find) a no turn .272 neck or so....

But.... As David said... With a twist......Have Ron turn your necks to your chamber and use Norma brass... Or anyone on this board who want's to do it... Guess I wouldn't mind if it's not more than 50rds ... I got bullets to make..... Well when I get frick'n jackets..........:p

Oh... The Norma brass looks DARN good.. Has a tad more capacity (.8 gr or so).... Toughness, well... We'll have to see cause Lapua is IT in the PPC..
So far, my findings with Norma PPC brass is EXCELLENT.... I'll give it a go in 2014, see if I can get a Grand... I believe Norma will be just fine.
cale
 
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